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24c  
#21 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2024 5:00:50 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
Here is an example the TurboCAD forum asked me to check Copilot regarding aluminum beam extrusion weight calculation with hole removal.


Just checked out the screenshots... rather interesting, and quicker than doing the maths yourself. :)
Mike
macOS 14.3.1 (Sonoma) - MacBook M1 Max 64GB 2TB SSD & external display - SharkCAD Pro v14.1.0 build 1652
Tim Olson  
#22 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2024 12:42:06 PM(UTC)
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>>Just checked out the screenshots... rather interesting, and quicker than doing the maths yourself. :)

It did a good job with 1) units 2)extracting section values from my file and 3)finding equations from the general knowledge pool to reuse my cad data.

I am still skeptical when it reaches out to the general knowledge pool. I find myself always asking the AI to show me your steps and show all calculations such that I can double check the results. I was able to confirm this particular question by making the part and drilling holes and using the verify command. It was right on the mark. But that was this time, it needs to do it every time. I find the words in the question make a huge difference in guiding it to correct answers. Often requiring the same question be asked multiple time with a little bit more info to guide the AI.

What I find exciting is when Copilot can use my CAD data to tell me something I didn't not know or calculate some new property that the CAD app could not do.

It's very interesting, I can't wait to get some experienced designers involved.


Tim
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ZeroLengthCurve on 3/17/2024(UTC)
ZeroLengthCurve  
#23 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2024 1:40:41 PM(UTC)
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Perhaps this is a dismal failure on my part, but, until today, I had not known of the existence of CADD Pro. Is this an outgrowth of SharkCAD, or a different product under the "family umbrella"? Ive heard of CADD as a term, decades ago, bit can't recall it in the context of a new app related to SharkCAD or ViaCAD or PunchCAD.

Before AI is something I'd go near in CAD/CADD (or ideally, the AI can do this on the fly for the user), I'd like to see the following occur, or know of the capabilities of CAD-AI nexii, among myriad other things:

— stretchable/resizable dialogue boxes to prevent layer names of the repeated kind end up being useless because the last few characters of the name are unreachable/inaccessible;

— snappable dialogues that confer new filtering and task-related history trees so the user can date-time tasks; make the rules set human readable and save-able as a session file that can be reused so crashes don't upend the user's state of mind or workflow;

— a real layer finder that includes a text string input field at each dialogue box with some kind if tagger so that complex finds and exclusins enable the user to be more productive when thousands of layers are involved in a file;

— more flexible geometry and associativity import/export facilities; it should be possible to import and export layers merely by copying and pasting a selected tree or branch without the paste action successively generation unneeded, distractingly long tip-level trees that break the readability/continuity of a users naming convention, and without losing associativity (export/import is the only way I know of to preserve geometry associativity,but it comes with the penalty of top-level tree/branch additions);

— resolve the Shift+Tab decreasing-zoom graphics issue; for me, in every instance of ViaCAD and SharkCAD I've ever had whether in Win7 natively or in Win run in VirtualBox, the act of doing Shift+Tab disruptively and distressingly messes wirh view zoom; the ONLY way to nix this vexatious and stressful behavior is to run two instances of Shark so that I can rapidly visually toggle between the active and the referenced files I'm using.

— permanently put an end to amnesiac tool palettes; if I have, say, 10 successively successfully engaged sessions (determined by a successful close and reopen that doesn't show a lattern of me hunting for the pallet.pos file or making new files related to palettes OR determined by a long but unclosed), non-crashed session), generate a set of time-stamped files (maybe up to 10 distinct subfolders to be fallbacks); these can confer the benefit of saving the user some hair, and could do double duty as session personality files; I lose hair when the app crashed and takes away my palettes and makes me have to rebuild or relocate them (imagine every time you oark your car, you find it in a new location upon needing it— it runs dine, but it requires playing whack-a-mole);

— add porcupines; the curvature circle just doesn't work for me — especially when trying to make compound curvature curves as in ship hull curves. If an AI is going to be useful in CAD/CADD it absolutely has to be able to look at user intent, as in, "What's the end goal of this user or of this geometry? Ah, a tank? A car? A ship hull? Thar be compound curvature for sure. He's added twisted wires slightly away from y=0, and can't close the model because of "all wires must be either all open or all closed", because the 3D kernel developer didn't anticipate, can't support, or refuses to support such til a later costlier tool chain can be foisted on the CAD app dev or that dev's customers..."...;

— I can never make reasonable use of the curvature circle because it scales out to like 10 to 100x the size of my ship model, and at such a zoom or scale level, it completely takes me out of the frame of mind, and puts me into, oh hell, I'll put in a disclosure "My dear customer/user, that's your homework, not mine, to do. I'm not that skilled a user to create a perfectly faired curve... Sorry".

— the constraints tools should not insist that geometry be planar. Sometimes, 3D objects are all there is, and in and if themselves can be usefully internally transformed to achieve helping the user achieve something.

— will an AI embed help the user give rotation to parts? Will its scripting engine let me build a grid that say, lets me simulate transit along a distance? Say I want the propeller to turn x nbr of rpms, and I want to estimate the volume/mass/viscosity of water moved, snd want to translate that into mass of the ship moved, then suddenly shif the rudder or alter the blade pitch between port and starboard, which alters the mass-inertia-direction components. I realize this is a domain issue for naval architecture apps, but lowly sub-50-MB FREE!Ship and FREE!Ship Plus (I'm speaking of the v 3.5 or pre year 2015, abandoned version, not the picked-up, GitHub-sited version) sort of does some of that to calculate turning circle, acceleration, and other things such as righting moments. (I also realize that if Tim's AI can do that, it might hurl the app into ITARS territory and, well, that's a whole other can of worms...)


— if I trial or join the v15 beta (assuming I'm even invited), will I find that my propeller blades created at X=0 via the polar array tool don't need to be copied and pasted to prevent their flying apart along a virtual ray as I displace the polar-arrayed/duplicated blades to x= 155 meters?


I presume or think AI needs to look at reasonableness, not just speed or anticipation of easy transforms.

It would be nice of the mentioned scripting is along the lines of what's in Grasshopper, Orca3D, Nemo, Nautilus, etc. If I have to choose between Rhino+Orca 3D, or the other add-ons, and the Shark or Rhino+add-ons will cost $1,000-$2000, then, as mcluchbas I don't want an Autodesk-looking GUI, I might be forced there.

Also, a useful AI needs to do something about layers duplication. Duplicating a part is more than duplicating it without a paired or new layer. It needs to allow the user to tear off and mix and match layers WITH and irrespective of the relevant geometry. If I want to create a proxy gas turbine engine of some 24 or 48 wires but mirror and rotate it, and the initial work is starboard, but I want to create a parallel layer in or outside of the tree or branch, "duplicate part" is insufficient if the org structure is flattened in any way. An AI needs to think like a human in those small but useful ways, but need not be attempting sentience.

— will the AI be private? I can't see an individual beavering away on a self-styled skunk works even for a second accepting that an external party is going to impose, suggest, or ask for privileged information of or access into a user's file.

This is particularly important to me because I'm a slow mover. 90% of the people who or MLs that would gain privileged access to my files wouldn't hesitate to run off with my arc out of frustration with or intolerance at waiting for me. In other words, I have a severe allergy to helping someone "beat me at my own game" when I'm hoping to feed myself via my own designs.

I'd almost rather be dead than let someone 100x more krganized and faster than I am just help themselves (I'm referring to people or systems way higher above Tim, not saying Tim's after my files) to my private activities, mask their access history, then recompose my efforts as if theirs, then block me from being able to claim my own work as mine. Such has happened before, and it's nefarious, not reasonable competition. At least, that's my perspective. It's why I still use Lotus SmartSuite Millennium Edition, because there's no "home to call out to" (as long as I keep it offline since jerks out there can creat stub sites hoping to ensnare someone whose year-2003 install may be reaching out to dead links), and why I operate my machines offline or strive to lawfully achieve offline activation of any new apps. Yep, I despise most apps that are demanding always-online use and that kill off local private use.

The world is not as rosy as we'd prefer. Trust is easily abused. Massive overkill of IP creation is my self defense from being defenestration from a future company I want to create. (Yes, I admit: I'm paranoid.)

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creativecad on 4/12/2024(UTC)
Tim Olson  
#24 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2024 2:10:56 PM(UTC)
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Many thanks for your suggestions.

— add porcupines;

Try the Verify Curvature and Curvature Settings. This IS a porcupine plot. This calculates the curvature magnitude at evaluated point locations and displays a vector perpendicular to the curve with a length equal to the curvature. It is a great way to see distribution of curvature.

For surfaces I recommend using the Surface Analysis tools such as Zebra plots.

Curvature plays an important role in blending, shelling, and offsetting and other CAD operations. As such, I've trained the AI to understand inflections, curvature related to curves and surfaces, continuity(G0,G1,G2), radius of curvature, etc. With Copilot you can simply ask questions related to curve or surface curvature.


Tim

Edited by user Friday, March 15, 2024 3:14:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Tim Olson
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CADCAM  
#25 Posted : Friday, March 15, 2024 2:19:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>>Will we get a stable (non WIP) v14 release before v15 is released?

We have another build coming up this weekend (1653) with the Inspector Gripper user axis fixed and several other minor issues.

Tim


Great. Please also double check "at positioned". It was also not working in 1652.

Cheers
Tim Olson  
#26 Posted : Saturday, March 16, 2024 1:17:30 PM(UTC)
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Moved Copilot into Concept Explorer to help save screen space.

Tim
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ZeroLengthCurve  
#27 Posted : Sunday, March 17, 2024 10:58:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>>Just checked out the screenshots... rather interesting, and quicker than doing the maths yourself. :)

It did a good job with 1) units 2)extracting section values from my file and 3)finding equations from the general knowledge pool to reuse my cad data.

I am still skeptical when it reaches out to the general knowledge pool. I find myself always asking the AI to show me your steps and show all calculations such that I can double check the results. I was able to confirm this particular question by making the part and drilling holes and using the verify command. It was right on the mark. But that was this time, it needs to do it every time. I find the words in the question make a huge difference in guiding it to correct answers. Often requiring the same question be asked multiple time with a little bit more info to guide the AI.

What I find exciting is when Copilot can use my CAD data to tell me something I didn't not know or calculate some new property that the CAD app could not do.

It's very interesting, I can't wait to get some experienced designers involved.


Tim



What I really like about the Mass Properties feature is that I can obtain massing about the deck plates, bulkheads, stiffening and more.

Perhaps interactive AI in SharkCAD can help head off poor technique issues caused by the user?

I occasionally get some nasty geometry in convergence area of rhe model such as where the sonar head's aft neck meets the keel at keel baseline. Since it's a hit-or-miss thing, I sometimes simply cannot thicken the hull. If I can thicken it, I often can't shell it. It took years to get a keel skeg to be really thin. It's a beast to work through in solitude under the paranoia of being outpaced for asking for help.

(Of course, when I sell the hull model, I'll provide multiple versions of samples so my end users can forge their own improvements forward. Naval architects will often say "use fewer than 20 curves 15 even, or as few as you can get away with. Well, for a DDG-51-like hull to look better than what's in industry papers, and to make a hull that is better than the non-representatice 5415, and closer to or better than the ~5512 geosim model, I had to use some 8-10 curves in the bow region, ~15 between the bow and after body, and some 15 for the aft cut-up or run area that includes the skeg, and out to the transom edge. This is because I don't like making hulls via "parches". My sonar head and the keel skeg are organically all one piece. There all myriad disadvantages, of course. One disadvantage is some waviness along the keel. To combat it, I have to add more input or shaping curves, which adds to the mathematical complexity, and makes fairing more intensive to achieve.

But, I get to brag that ViaCAD and SharkCAD enabled me to achieve it. Other CAD app users show off gooseneck and bulbous bows, but, generally, they don't have to deal with the vagaries of the bulb body transitioning downward beyond the keel baseline. I dare say their work content is not nearly as hard as mine, at least based on the approach I use.)


That forced me to use the project-surface-to-body tool to create solids within the good areas of my hull, then slice the solids into individual zones or compartments.

The tradeoff led to an advantage (albeit at generation/s of extra geometry) of having a solid for the volumes, and a solid which I shell to obtain the local massing info of the hull zone itself. I separately build in the deck plates. The bulkheads are the shelled areas at the ends of a given zone. Nicely and fortunately, the shelling tool allows all sides to have individual thicknesses or zero thickness. Super nice.

The transom is super easy to cap off and close. The stem, however, is a serious amount of trial and error, compromise, and more. Since I use mirrored half-breadth curves as the basis for rebuilding a one-piece spline for each pseudo-station that is part of a network of some 30-50 shaping/input curves — to shape the hull — the forward-most curve cannot be closed (the ~"all wires must be either open or closed" thing). I tried trying to "cap" it off, usually to no avail. So, the curve in question is put at something like Y=0.00001m, to minimize whatever twice makes the capping tool fail.

Part of the tradeoff is once I get the hull how I want or can stand fiddling with, I move the hull inboard by -0.00001m, slice the surface, then mirror and join it, then add the transom and the rop deck. If lucky, I can get a stitch to become a shellable body.

An advantage to doing this is I can select and do "show only" for all the selected geometry without using clip planes. One thing I dislike about clip planes is the geometric center of invisible stuff still exerts a heavy hand on zooming, panning, and on selecting or snapping to objects.

(Also, another disadvantage to clip planes is they seem to be culpable in the creation of mouse-unselectable detritus, the stuff that looks like geometry, but can't be selected by mouse. To get rid of such stuff, I end up havding to select everything visible, hiding it, then hunting through any layer possibly containing it, then doing Ctrl+A, then hitting delete.

This is where another problem shows its head: the one non-resizable dialog box that makes it impossible to identify layers where deep nesting with similar names in "assemblies" or deep organization exists. So, if say, I route a duct and its parts through several layers, and I use clip planes to show or hide, then I move the clip planes around, somewhere in there is where in my case, the geometry is being virtually cut, then gets left behind. It could be days or weeks before I realize it was created, and it is tedious to hunt and remove.)

Hopefully, AI added to SharkCAD auto senses unexpectedly created geometry and flags the user before too much time has passed. This is a time where thought stream should be interrupted.
thanks 2 users thanked ZeroLengthCurve for this useful post.
damhave on 3/17/2024(UTC), GARLIC on 3/17/2024(UTC)
relaxibus  
#28 Posted : Monday, March 18, 2024 5:26:20 AM(UTC)
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Mah... now everyone is jumping on this ugly "AI bubble". ViaCAD/SharkCAD still features bugs not resolved yet. I would go more for a straight way to first fix all the bugs (a lot of peoples post here bugs without any answer since months). The make the SW robust and optimized (Step import slow, handling groups of objects leads to a non useable slow moving experience, Metal and Apple Silicon native porting, etc).
So please, don't follow the AI bubble like a sheep, but create a more final and robust CAD application.

I really don't see any advantage on AI in the CAD. There are more needs for modeling tools.
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damhave on 3/18/2024(UTC), posh.de on 3/18/2024(UTC)
posh.de  
#29 Posted : Monday, March 18, 2024 9:53:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: damhave Go to Quoted Post
Will we get a stable (non WIP) v14 release before v15 is released?


nope, as always, don't be...

Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
... naive to the practical business of CAD.
POSH GmbH
www.posh.de
ZeroLengthCurve  
#30 Posted : Monday, March 18, 2024 6:54:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
Moved Copilot into Concept Explorer to help save screen space.

Tim



Hi Tim,

When I click on the file link, in Chrome (mobile version), I get the following message:

"Please do not link directly to this resource. You must have a session in the forum."

I'm logged into the forum.
ZeroLengthCurve  
#31 Posted : Monday, March 18, 2024 7:00:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ZeroLengthCurve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
Moved Copilot into Concept Explorer to help save screen space.

Tim



Hi Tim,

When I click on the file link, in Chrome (mobile version), I get the following message:

"Please do not link directly to this resource. You must have a session in the forum."

I'm logged into the forum.



Oh, belay my last/nevermind.

Just now, after numerous failed link-click attempts across two visits, the diwnload image dialogue suddenly displayed. Not sure why it failed earlier, since previously, I was also logged in, did view refresh, replied to a message/post, etc.
ZeroLengthCurve  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, March 19, 2024 12:02:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
Many thanks for your suggestions.

— add porcupines;

Try the Verify Curvature and Curvature Settings. This IS a porcupine plot. This calculates the curvature magnitude at evaluated point locations and displays a vector perpendicular to the curve with a length equal to the curvature. It is a great way to see distribution of curvature.

For surfaces I recommend using the Surface Analysis tools such as Zebra plots.

Curvature plays an important role in blending, shelling, and offsetting and other CAD operations. As such, I've trained the AI to understand inflections, curvature related to curves and surfaces, continuity(G0,G1,G2), radius of curvature, etc. With Copilot you can simply ask questions related to curve or surface curvature.


Tim



Wow... My uears-long ignorance.


You're of course correct. In all the years I'd dabbled with the curvature plot and its Evaluations and its Scale settings, I'd never set the values big enough to make the porcupines appear.

Given the size of my ships, at 140-180 meters length with 20-22 meter breadths, I created just one test midsection, fiddled with the Evaluations and the Scale, setting to 100 and 1000, respectively. Those and other approximate values do what I for years aimed for.

Gods, I wish I'd known this years ago.

This'll likely clear up several issues where my as hoc/casual curvatue shaping prevented thickening and shelling.


Thanks, Tim
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lightbulbjim  
#33 Posted : Saturday, March 23, 2024 6:54:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
Build 1624 was the first release of V14. Currently we are at 1652 or 18 updates.

And of course, 1652 represents one thousand six hundred fifty two updated installers since this product was first released as CADD Pro.

As long as I'm involved, I would like to think this product is actively being updated contrary to some posters with alternative agendas.


Here's something I've wondered more than once: Are these beta/WIP builds intended to be official versions for daily use? The fact that they're named beta/WIP, plus the warning on the MasterViaCAD page ("WIP and Beta builds have limited testing. Use at you own risk.") indicate that they are not general release versions.

Help -> Current Version has never once told me that an update is available. To find the latest builds one must:

1. Discover this forum.

2. Find the thread announcing the latest WIP build.

3. Go to the MasterViaCAD website and request an email using the form which warns that the build may be unstable.

4. Follow the link in the email.

Am I missing something? Are official service packs/point releases available somewhere?


Quote:
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”
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Claus2 on 3/24/2024(UTC), posh.de on 3/26/2024(UTC)
Claus2  
#34 Posted : Sunday, March 24, 2024 7:08:38 AM(UTC)
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Love the quote. Beside being funny this is very true. Even after all these years I can never remember how to find the updates and they are sort of randomly posted here. I think having proper point releases once in a while and proper notification would be good for business.
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posh.de on 3/26/2024(UTC)
perry  
#35 Posted : Sunday, March 24, 2024 12:06:28 PM(UTC)
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I for one am completely sick and tired of all the software I'm using trying to find a way to integrate AI. There are some applications I can see it being useful, CAD is not one of them. I work in film and video, and all the software we use is trying to find ways to get marketing-compliant AI buzzwords stuffed into their new versions. The only example that has (so far) made any sense to me is the ability to do automatic subtitle generation from a video. And, predictably, it's about 60% accurate. You still end up having a to do a bunch of stuff to fix it.

Here's what I care about in my CAD software:

1) Stability.
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GARLIC on 3/24/2024(UTC), relaxibus on 3/25/2024(UTC), posh.de on 3/26/2024(UTC)
creativecad  
#36 Posted : Friday, April 12, 2024 9:47:59 PM(UTC)
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I'd really like to see the MTS views work better. I really need a way to remove parts out of a draw view without deleting my model part. I am constantly having to go back and forth between my draw view and the model. I wish we could change the solid model directly in the draw view.

Every job, something always happens...a customer of mine or my boss wants to change the design. When I change the design, somehow the draw views often fail to update the changes correctly even though all the views are regenerated and all links are resolved. I can delete the problems from the draw view, but a few minutes later after another change is made, the deleted parts pop up again in the draw view. I end up just redrawing the draw view which means redimensioning and re-notating...time consuming. This may be caused by broken or deleted links.

Also needed is for groups to be displayed in the draw views. It seems crazy to me that I have to ungroup before I can show the group.

3rd request is for the cutlist with fractions to round to the nearest sixteenth. My shop doesn't use 32nds.

4th request is for the points to curve tool to work for multiple connected curves.

5th request is to find the total length of multiple connected curves.

6th request is an option for angle dimensions to flip their arrows to the opposite side.

7th request is to be able to copy and move layers and their sub layers better.

8th request is for dimensions to have a model scale factor in addition to scale by text size. When you are not in a draw view, your dimensions will automatically scale by the model scale factor so you can place dimensions on your model without switching to a different dimension standard.

9th request is to have better control of ordinate dimensions with the inspector or standard styles. I haven't figured out how to control the ordinate dimensions with these. I just modify the ordinate dimensions after I place them.

10th request is to be able to control and copy multiple draw views better. I would like to duplicate a detail view and paste it on a different drawing. But also copy or create a new blank draw view from a non blank draw view with the properties automatically set to the non blank draw view. Or to create multiple new draw views with the properties preset in the inspector so we don't have to change these properties on every single draw view.

11th request is for leader notations(call-out balloons) to be shown in the inspector like text is shown in the inspector. It is difficult to adjust the leaders notes in that tiny blank space.

So I'm not against AI necessarily if it can help me produce faster and better without any security risks, but these previous requests would be much more beneficial for me.
ViaCad 10 Pro
ViaCad 9
Windows 10
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GARLIC on 4/13/2024(UTC), damhave on 4/13/2024(UTC), ZeroLengthCurve on 4/13/2024(UTC)
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