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Newbie questions... "fancy" holes (#2155)
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jtfx  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:31:54 PM(UTC)
jtfx

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I tried doing some searches and found some related threads, but none that applied directly to what I want to do.

I want to design hydraulic valve manifolds. For those not familiar, they basically are a rectangular block of aluminum or steel with special "cavities" drilled into them that accept cartridge valves.

The cavities are like counterbored holes with several different diameters and radiuses (radii?).

I have found the profile of the cavities as .dxfs online. They can be imported and lathed around their center axis to make a "positive" of the cavity. Then I can move them to the block, do a subtract object, and I have my cavity in the block.

The problem is, once this fancy hole is in the block, I can't seem to do anything with it? I can't select it, as I end up just selecting the block that contains the hole, I can dimension it, as it is just a void with no center.

I tried just leaving them as a bunch of solids so I could move them around, but it didn't take to long until selecting one "positive" of a given cavity at a time became a problem, as I'd end up selecting parts of other cavities or ports.

I attached a sample of a "lathed" cavity profile so you can get an idea of what a typical cavity looks like.

Any thoughts?
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jdi000  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:44:17 PM(UTC)
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Hi

What do you want to do with the holes after putting them in the manifold? be able to modify the diameters, move them around in the manifold?


Jason
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jdi000  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:36:53 PM(UTC)
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Hi, jt

For ultimate flexibility I would construct each fancy hole by using the cutout tool and putting fillets and chamfers in where needed.

Draw each bore diameter as concentric circle on the top plane and use the cutout tool on each diameter to the proper depth and then use the fillet and chamfer tools where needed. Then you can group the 2d circles together and move them as needed and the fancy hole will move where needed all at once

you can go into concept explorer and modify each cutout of each hole if you need to lengthen or change the diameter as well. See attached.


Regards

Jason
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VC16-6jtfx.vcp (115kb) downloaded 5 time(s).

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jtfx  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:46:27 PM(UTC)
jtfx

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Originally Posted by: jdi000 Go to Quoted Post
Hi

What do you want to do with the holes after putting them in the manifold? be able to modify the diameters, move them around in the manifold?


Jason


Thanks for the quick response,

For making models of manifolds that are already designed, since I have a 2d drawing that shows were they all are, all I need to do is be able to dimension them.

The model I made as described in my first post above, I can't add the center mark dimension in sheet view, well actually in any view, as the cavity as I created it, doesn't contain any circles..

For manifolds that are not yet designed, then I need to be able to move cavities around as the circuit gets laid in. I need to be able to move them from one face to the other, countersink the whole cavity, etc to get the needed lands of the cavities to connect.
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jtfx  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2009 8:47:50 PM(UTC)
jtfx

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Originally Posted by: jdi000 Go to Quoted Post
Hi, jt

For ultimate flexibility I would construct each fancy hole by using the cutout tool and putting fillets and chamfers in where needed.

Draw each bore diameter as concentric circle on the top plane and use the cutout tool on each diameter to the proper depth and then use the fillet and chamfer tools where needed. Then you can group the 2d circles together and move them as needed and the fancy hole will move where needed all at once

you can go into concept explorer and modify each cutout of each hole if you need to lengthen or change the diameter as well. See attached.


Regards

Jason


Wow, thanks, I am going to play with the file you supplied. I'm sure I'll be back with some questions.
Edit:
I'm not sure what I could be doing wrong, but I can't seem to open the file you attached?
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ttrw  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:54:58 AM(UTC)
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I noticed that the file extension name is ".vcp" and not ".vc3". Changing the file to vc3 opens it in ViaCAD. What is the purpose of this 'p' Tim? We've been here before?
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ttrw  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:57:05 AM(UTC)
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Here's the file (experiment)
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jdi000  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:53:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post
Wow, thanks, I am going to play with the file you supplied. I'm sure I'll be back with some questions.
Edit:
I'm not sure what I could be doing wrong, but I can't seem to open the file you attached?



jt

Sorry I didn't ask what version you are using, You are using Viacad Pro v5 right? Here is file saved as version 5.

The vcp extension is ViaCAD Pro
The vc3 is Viacad


Using circles and the cutout tool will let you be able to move the cavities around but rotate might be more of a challenge, you can also select the circles along with the part when doing a model to sheet so the center dim will work on those.

Regards

Jason
File Attachment(s):
VC16-6jtfx.vc3 (115kb) downloaded 5 time(s).

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jtfx  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:47:29 PM(UTC)
jtfx

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Thanks for the tips regarding the file type.

I was able to open the file, however I still must not be trying to work with it in the correct manner.

First I attempted to select the hole by clicking various places in the circle on the face of the block. I was able to select "Group 190488". I could also select by dragging from the left across it.

While it seems as though this hole would allow me to dimension it, it doesn't appear that there is an easy way to use this hole as a basis to make another hole. I tried to cut and paste it, option drag it, but never was I able to get a new hole?

Maybe what I am saying is obvious to those that know how to work the software, and I have an unrealistc expectaion.

I was hoping that everytime I needed a cavity, I wouldn't have to build it.
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ttrw  
#10 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:19:18 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the tips regarding the file type.


No problem jt :)

Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post

While it seems as though this hole would allow me to dimension it, it doesn't appear that there is an easy way to use this hole as a basis to make another hole. I tried to cut and paste it, option drag it, but never was I able to get a new hole?


This behaviour is pretty similar to Pro/E and Solidworks also. 2D CAD is quite different to 3D CAD as you will no doubt appreciate. Basically you have to start again, because the previous sketch entities have relationships, and when you copy and paste all you are doing is copying those relations (or "group 190488").

Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post

Maybe what I am saying is obvious to those that know how to work the software, and I have an unrealistc expectaion.

I was hoping that everytime I needed a cavity, I wouldn't have to build it.


There is quite a steep learning curve with any 3D CAD, Shark/ VC being no exception, but having stuff like "group 190488" to go by- that's unsurprising. I have enough troubles trying to remember my phone number, yet alone all these strings of numbers in VC! (attn, Tim!! ;) )! LOL!
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tmay  
#11 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:35:44 AM(UTC)
tmay

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Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the tips regarding the file type.

I was able to open the file, however I still must not be trying to work with it in the correct manner.

First I attempted to select the hole by clicking various places in the circle on the face of the block. I was able to select "Group 190488". I could also select by dragging from the left across it.

While it seems as though this hole would allow me to dimension it, it doesn't appear that there is an easy way to use this hole as a basis to make another hole. I tried to cut and paste it, option drag it, but never was I able to get a new hole?

Maybe what I am saying is obvious to those that know how to work the software, and I have an unrealistc expectaion.

I was hoping that everytime I needed a cavity, I wouldn't have to build it.


I'm using Shark, so I'm guessing that this feature is available under VC:

The last item under the Edit menu is Remove Links. It basically breaks history with the original instance of the feature.

A better way might be to Right Click on the feature you want to copy and duplicate it as an instance or with history. I can't remember exactly how they work, but this should be able to accomplish what you are looking at.

Sorry that I can't be of more help, but I'm in the second day of a three day class on BobCAD (which is really CAM) so I have to head out. Interestingly, the trainer is now a huge mac fan, and got busted by the boss for using his Macbook Pro with Parallels for the training., so he's require to use a PC laptop again. Bummer

the other tom
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ttrw  
#12 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:00:51 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: tmay Go to Quoted Post
I'm using Shark, so I'm guessing that this feature is available under VC:

The last item under the Edit menu is Remove Links. It basically breaks history with the original instance of the feature.



Tom, I've only got "Force Resolve Links".

gwad- I want a copy of SFX!!! I want those parametrics!! VC feels really disabled without them :(:(
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Tim Olson  
#13 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:56:40 PM(UTC)
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>>I've only got "Force Resolve Links".

Tom
Remove Links is in ViaCAD as well. You need to have something selected for it to turn on.
Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
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ttrw  
#14 Posted : Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:59:31 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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Thanks Tim :)
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billbedford  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 2:40:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ttrw Go to Quoted Post
There is quite a steep learning curve with any 3D CAD, Shark/ VC being no exception, but having stuff like "group 190488" to go by- that's unsurprising. I have enough troubles trying to remember my phone number, yet alone all these strings of numbers in VC! (attn, Tim!! ;) )! LOL!


You can rename anything in the history tree.
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jol  
#16 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 3:24:11 AM(UTC)
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Agree Bill - it's time we abstracted these numbers into much simpler ones for the user !
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ttrw  
#17 Posted : Friday, March 27, 2009 5:08:50 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Originally Posted by: billbedford Go to Quoted Post
You can rename anything in the history tree.


Yes- of course you can. But why have mobile phone-length numbers there in the first place? All this does, is further slows ones workflow down even more :(

This system needs to be far more logical.
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jtfx  
#18 Posted : Saturday, March 28, 2009 9:47:13 AM(UTC)
jtfx

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Joined: 3/16/2009(UTC)
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I am back to playing with the software, and I am not having a lot of luck.

The software I am using is the viacad pro version 5 for Mac trial.

My "non" pro trial version was v6, but when I decided I needed the "add surface" command, I downloaded the pro version.

Anyway, I can not get the center mark dimension to show up in sheet view.

In the attached file I made the right two holes by extruding a circle into the block. I can add a center mark dimension in the 3-d view, but id doesn't appear visible to me in the sheet view.

The two left most holes I made with the simple hole tool. I can't seem to center mark it in 3-d or sheet view. Per this thread, http://forum.punchcad.com/showthread.php?t=1746 I held the option key while creating the smaller of the two left most holes, but I can't tell that did anything different.


I don't know if the drawing will open in the same form I left it, but I do have a sheet view layer that you can look at to see if there is something wrong with the way I created it.
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unique  
#19 Posted : Saturday, March 28, 2009 12:40:17 PM(UTC)
unique

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Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post
I am back to playing with the software, and I am not having a lot of luck.

The software I am using is the viacad pro version 5 for Mac trial.

My "non" pro trial version was v6, but when I decided I needed the "add surface" command, I downloaded the pro version.

Anyway, I can not get the center mark dimension to show up in sheet view.

In the attached file I made the right two holes by extruding a circle into the block. I can add a center mark dimension in the 3-d view, but id doesn't appear visible to me in the sheet view.

The two left most holes I made with the simple hole tool. I can't seem to center mark it in 3-d or sheet view. Per this thread, http://forum.punchcad.com/showthread.php?t=1746 I held the option key while creating the smaller of the two left most holes, but I can't tell that did anything different.


I don't know if the drawing will open in the same form I left it, but I do have a sheet view layer that you can look at to see if there is something wrong with the way I created it.


Hi jtfx

The Center Mark tool looks for a circle....Viacad 2d/3d & Pro does not output true geometry into the drawing sheet therefore apparently cannot be done.

Depending on what you ened it for..you can either draw lines using the intelligence & snaps from the model OR you can flatten view and draw arcs by 3points and then use them....

We need to dig deeper for SFX for that luxury:D
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jdi000  
#20 Posted : Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:30:15 PM(UTC)
jdi000

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Originally Posted by: jtfx Go to Quoted Post
I am back to playing with the software, and I am not having a lot of luck.

The software I am using is the viacad pro version 5 for Mac trial.

My "non" pro trial version was v6, but when I decided I needed the "add surface" command, I downloaded the pro version.

Anyway, I can not get the center mark dimension to show up in sheet view.

In the attached file I made the right two holes by extruding a circle into the block. I can add a center mark dimension in the 3-d view, but id doesn't appear visible to me in the sheet view.

The two left most holes I made with the simple hole tool. I can't seem to center mark it in 3-d or sheet view. Per this thread, http://forum.punchcad.com/showthread.php?t=1746 I held the option key while creating the smaller of the two left most holes, but I can't tell that did anything different.


I don't know if the drawing will open in the same form I left it, but I do have a sheet view layer that you can look at to see if there is something wrong with the way I created it.




Hi jtfx

There is a bug here it seems where the holes located on the xz & yz plane are not displaying the center dim mark, I am getting half the mark but not the vertical part. If your holes were on the xy plane they would display. This is only happening on polyline edges.

The option click during hole creation is to create a center point when the hole is created.

ViaCAD & ViaCAD Pro draws a polyline approximation instead of precise curves in the sheet views but it will accurately dimension a radius or diameter dimension the program pulls the precise dimension corresponding to the polyline representation of each curve, and the center dim mark should definitely work when everything is running good.


Regards

Jason
File Attachment(s):
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