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damhave  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:12:54 AM(UTC)
damhave

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HI,
I have some scaling problems when exporting ACIS SAT from plasticity 24.1.2 and importing the ACIS SAT in Sharkcad V14 pro 1653.
Minimum test case is the default 1000mm x 1000mm x 1000mm init cube in Plasticity.
When I export ACIS SAT (file attached OBS remove .txt filetype and use .sat file type. Sat files cannot be uploaded - sorry) from Plasticity
and import the ACIS file in SharkCAD it seems that cube is scaled down to 25.4mm x 25.4 x 25.4 mm (screen dump attached) which looks like a unit problem.
When I import the file again in Plasticity 24.1.2 the size is 1000mm x 1000mm x 1000mm (screen dump attached)
I am have no experience in manually reading SAT files, but when I open the file in a text editor (ultraedit) it seems to me that the cube should be 1000mm x 1000mm x 1000mm.
My guess is, it is a scaling bug in SharkCAD
(BTW same result on both OSX and Win10 and both programs on both platforms set to mm units).
Can anyone help and confirm this by importing the SAT file in another CAD program?
kind regards
Danny

Edited by user Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:21:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: changed file to .txt type because .sat files cannot be uploaded

File Attachment(s):
Sharkcad Pro v14 1653 ACIS SAT import from Plasticity.png (1,165kb) downloaded 9 time(s).
Plasticity 24.1.2 ACIS SAT import from Plasticity.png (618kb) downloaded 7 time(s).
Plasticity 24.1.2 1000mmx1000mmx1000mm Cube.sat.txt (5kb) downloaded 11 time(s).

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GARLIC  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 10:14:06 AM(UTC)
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well just a short test importing your sat-file in solid edge + moi3d gave 1000 x 1000 x 1000 mm
best regards
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damhave on 5/8/2024(UTC)
damhave  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 10:41:04 AM(UTC)
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@GARLIC Thanks a lot!
Then it in my opinion is a scaling bug in the SharkCAD pro v14 ACIS SAT import.
kind regards
Danny
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L. Banasky  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 12:38:36 PM(UTC)
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Also looks OK in Fusion.
Larry
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damhave on 5/8/2024(UTC), GARLIC on 5/8/2024(UTC)
damhave  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 1:20:19 PM(UTC)
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@Larry Thanks a lot!
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UGMENTALCASE  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 2:45:51 PM(UTC)
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Both MOI3D and Alibre Design bring it in at 1m square. There is usually a bug with scaling, happens with the stp in v12 and many other issues relating to the imperial to metric conversion. It could be that shark sees it the 1meter as 1unit, and since it's made in imperial units displays 1inch? I don't know but that would be my guess, either way doesn't help with the import!
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damhave on 5/8/2024(UTC), GARLIC on 5/8/2024(UTC), MPSchmied on 5/9/2024(UTC)
Keith2019  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2024 7:35:08 PM(UTC)
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I just tried it with the latest build WIP test version of TurboCad Mac V15 Pro and got the same results of 25.4 x 25.4 x 25.4. Picture below.

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damhave on 5/9/2024(UTC), MPSchmied on 5/9/2024(UTC), GARLIC on 5/9/2024(UTC)
24c  
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2024 1:53:30 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

I asked the question and got a response back. I then looked for more info on how to interpret SAT file data strings and found this link https://paulbourke.net/dataformats/sat/sat.pdf

The header string contains various sub strings to identify the file aka

Save File Header
Topic: *SAT Save and Restore
The first record of the ACIS save file is a header, such as:

712 0 4 0 11 Scheme AIDE 11 ACIS 7.0 NT 24 Mon Apr 09 16:44:18 2001 -1 9.9999999999999995e-007 1e-010

SAT Format D 7.0
...... An encoded version number. In the example, this is “712”, which means the release is major release 7, minor release 1, and point release 2.
...... The total number of saved data records, or zero. If zero, then an end mark is required.
...... A count of the number of entities in the original entity list that were saved to the part file.
...... The least significant bit of this number is used to indicate whether or not history has been saved in this save file.
...... String length for the product string: “11”.
...... ID for the product which produced the file: “Scheme AIDE”. ...... String length for the ACIS version string: “11”.
...... ACIS version which produced the file: “ACIS 7.0 NT”. This may be different from the file version and can include the major release number, the minor release number, and the point release number. It also includes the platform on which it was produced.
...... String length for the date string: “24”.
...... Date file produced (in C ctime format): “Mon Apr 09 16:44:18 2001”.
...... Number of millimeters represented by each unit in the model: “-1”.
...... Value of resabs when the file was produced: “9.9999999999999995e-007”. Real . . .
...... Value of resnor when the file was produced: “1e-10”.

so if you look at the header file from damhave's file aka

10 Techsoft3D 15 ACIS 5.0 Darwin 25 Wed May 8 16:39:50 2024_ 1000 9.999999999999999547e-07 1.000000000000000036e-10

so it was produced by Techsoft 3D. and is an ACIS 5 format and the units are "1000", which is a little odd.

What it does suggest however and the response is not mine, is that maybe the other folks have made a mistake and nobody has picked up on it yet.

Mike





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damhave on 5/9/2024(UTC), GARLIC on 5/9/2024(UTC)
damhave  
#9 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2024 3:20:33 PM(UTC)
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Hi
I think "-1" is unitless. See:
https://www.autodesk.com...to-an-ACIS-SAT-file.html
and 1000 is 1000mm pr unit (or 1m)
kind regards
Danny

Edited by user Thursday, May 9, 2024 3:23:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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24c  
#10 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 1:19:14 AM(UTC)
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Hi Danny

I'm not sure that "-1" is unitless, by default ACIS files from what I've read recently were historically unitless, but then later the units become millimetres by default... and the user saving the file was given options later to apply a unit designation that becomes part of the header file string and can be parsed out when imported etc.

http://www-isl.ece.arizo.../ACIS/FCG/08TOL/0006.HTM

Maybe "-1" just means millimetres

Mike

PS I tried entering -1 in your header file and importing it the TCAD I'm using and I had to force quit, as the spinning beachball was looking at me, however when I changed the units to "1" vs "1000" I saw a 1mm cube, and a 25.4mm cube

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GARLIC on 5/10/2024(UTC)
24c  
#11 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 1:45:45 AM(UTC)
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Hi again,

There is an issue here and I think it is a parsing bug with TurboCAD and SharkCAD too, because if I change the header units to random numbers, the cube is indeed "1 unit" cubed as drawn by Danny aka damhave, everything scales up and down in millimetres as expected, but if I add "1000" it becomes 25.4mm cubed (small red cube), whereas if change it to 1001 then the object becomes much bigger (green cube)

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damhave on 5/10/2024(UTC)
damhave  
#12 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 2:24:59 AM(UTC)
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Hi 24c,
Thanks a lot!
I think the hint is in the last paragraph in the link you send. It is up to the application to do the scaling.
maybe "unitless" is not the right word for -1. it should probably be "no scaling" (default mm units) but unitless was the word I found in the autodesk link.

I just tried to set SharkCAD pro to meter units and export the ACIS SAT file for a 1mx1mx1m cube made in Shark. then it correctly writes a scaling factor of 1000 (fiie attached)
But when importing this SharkCAD generated ACIS SAT file the cube becomes 25.4mm x 25.4mm x 25.4mm in SharkCAD. Both when Shark units is set to mm and meter units)

It means that SharkCAD cannot read its OWN file. Something is wrong in the SharkCAD v14 ACIS SAT import.

(the SharkCAD generated ACIS SAT imports with correct size in Plasticity).
kind regards
Danny

Edited by user Friday, May 10, 2024 2:48:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: added info mm

File Attachment(s):
SharkCAD v14 in meter units export 1m x 1m x 1m.sat.txt (13kb) downloaded 0 time(s).

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GARLIC on 5/10/2024(UTC), MPSchmied on 5/12/2024(UTC)
24c  
#13 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 4:06:06 AM(UTC)
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Hi again

Originally Posted by: damhave Go to Quoted Post
It means that SharkCAD cannot read its OWN file. Something is wrong in the SharkCAD v14 ACIS SAT import...(the SharkCAD generated ACIS SAT imports with correct size in Plasticity).


Not quite damhave, SharkCAD, TurboCAD etc only have a bug when importing when the unit value is "1000", because "999", "1001", "1001.01" or "1000.125" all work correctly.
In tests just now, only for the use case unit size = "1000" (or "1000.0") is there an issue, which oddly gets parsed as 25.4mm instead of 1000mm
this is repeatable as you and others have found.

Mike


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GARLIC on 5/10/2024(UTC), damhave on 5/10/2024(UTC), MPSchmied on 5/12/2024(UTC)
damhave  
#14 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 4:55:57 AM(UTC)
damhave

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ok not always a bug just when the scaling factor is 1000 SharkCAD cannot read its own SAT files (and other SAT files) , but anyway I think that not working in SI units (meters) is something that should be fixed very fast ;-)
kind regards
Danny

Edited by user Friday, May 10, 2024 4:56:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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GARLIC on 5/10/2024(UTC)
24c  
#15 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 5:37:04 AM(UTC)
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Hmmm damhave

I wasn't checking the export function :)
You're right, I took your original SAT file imported into TCAD and exported it as SAT v17
The header looked like this

16 TurboCAD Pro v15 17 ACIS 32.0 Unknown 24 Fri May 10 12:08:00 2024 1 9.9999999999999995e-07 1e-10

Going back to the drawing in TCAD I scaled it by 40x and saved it, then exported as a SAT v17 again and the header looked like this...

16 TurboCAD Pro v15 17 ACIS 32.0 Unknown 24 Fri May 10 12:12:34 2024 1 9.9999999999999995e-07 1e-10

I haven't checked with another drawing or model yet**, but the unit descriptor string is "1" in both cases, but the dimensions of the model are correct, aka 25.4mm cubed in your wrongly parsed 1000mm cube, and 1016mm in the 40x scaled up version.

It appears that TCAD/SCAD etc isn't parsing a dimension unit like other softwares do! Maybe someone will chime in as to why they don't, but I suspect they are just saying it in millimetres and using the vertices/points to define the length, but way out of my knowledge base. :/

Kind regards
Mike

PS **Just did and it's "1" for two fresh drawings, tested using v5 and v17 export options

Edited by user Friday, May 10, 2024 5:38:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: typo

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GARLIC on 5/10/2024(UTC), damhave on 5/10/2024(UTC)
damhave  
#16 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 8:35:17 AM(UTC)
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Hi 24c
Have you tested the TCAD export with both with mm and meter units in the preferences?
(I am asking just to be sure that we are testing the same)
When setting the units to meter (see attachement- I guess it is more or less the same in TCAD) the scaling factor in the SAT file becomes 1000 in SharkCAD export (ACIS SAT v26) when I export the 1x1x1 (meter units) cube.
kind regards
Danny

Edited by user Friday, May 10, 2024 9:26:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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24c  
#17 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 3:45:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: damhave Go to Quoted Post
Have you tested the TCAD export with both with mm and meter units in the preferences?(I am asking just to be sure that we are testing the same)


Well I hadn't damhave as my default is always millimetres, but I have done for you now.

if I set the units to "meters" the scaling unit is "1000" aka 1m = 1000mm
if I set the units to "inches" the scaling units are "25.3999999" aka 1' = 25.399999 mm
if I set the units to "millimetres" we know the scaling unit is "1"

Clearly the ACIS kernel that handles the SAT/SAB exports is following the right conventions.

I have been told that SharkCAD, TurboCAD and ViaCAD use the licensed ACIS kernel to handle the import/export functions offered, and no additional parsing is done by the software team at Encore, plus these type of anomalies when mixing between software packages is very similar to what happens with CAM software packages.

The takeaway from this is the likely fault is differing ACIS standards/interpreters within softwares. If it was a Spatial error you'd see google links about it, but I haven't

Kind regards
Mike




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damhave  
#18 Posted : Friday, May 10, 2024 11:48:14 PM(UTC)
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@24c Thank you very much for your help.
BR
Danny

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UGMENTALCASE  
#19 Posted : Saturday, May 11, 2024 1:52:59 AM(UTC)
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It'll be fixed in v15 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Never in my life have I had issues with file formats from one system to another.
Starting with CATIA V4 then V5, Autocad, Alphacam, SOLIDWORKS, NX from as early as v4, a variety of mesh editing software and more recently Alibre, moi3D and plasticity. All the CAM software I use takes the units from the options that you physically set up, or give you options at import/export.
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