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2murray  
#1 Posted : Thursday, November 24, 2022 5:27:55 PM(UTC)
2murray

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One of the things that I enjoyed with PunchCAD from way back when was the broad-access WIP policy. It was like a peek into the skunk works when WIPs with two weeks' access were available to trial that had new features to tease. I'm a Rhino user as well these days. McNeel used to distribute Rhino with 25 saves rather than a time period, so if you didn't save, you could use it indefinitely (I still have a very old unsaved, still dabble-able Rhino V4 with T-Splines on a museum-piece Win XP PC). Nowadays, they have a more standard time period trial, but IMO the Rhino license terms once you've bought in make pretty much everyone else look Sad!, in the Donald Trump idiom. I can use Rhino on anything, but they've got what they call the "Zoo", a digital licensing arrangement that signs each device in or out as needed and only the one may be active at one time. If I'm not going have 'net access for a period, the last device used remains activated. McNeel are like PunchCAD used to be in offering WIPs for the next release, and while the current V7 has subdivision modelling and a SubDtoNurbs feature that works sort of mid-way between PowerPack/NPower's subd2nurbs method in that it uses subD's grid as nurb CVs, but doesn't convert tri-dominant meshes to quad-dominant, V8 has a so-called "shrink wrap" retopology tool as NPower's own Cyborg has and other subD modellers like 3DCoat, ZBrush and even Blender, although the mesh modellers don't use it for nurb conversion. Moment of Inspiration's Michael Gibson offers similar WIP access for current licensees. I think that IMSI ought to consider similar licensing and WIP conditions, because it makes users feel pretty good about their purchasing decision, and more inclined to tell everyone else about the developer's, and their own, confidence in the products and the sensibleness of buying in...
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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE  
#2 Posted : Saturday, November 26, 2022 12:44:26 PM(UTC)
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I've lost all confidence in anything produced by these guys currently. I hear what you are saying and I think the current BETA access request is quite frankly a joke. Please sir give me access to your precious software! Errr no!

I don't use shark anymore, the support can't even warrant my emails with a reply anymore so I've given up. I stay attached to the forum to help other unsuspecting folk who have been taken in by the glamorous website. I don't think it's fair to be honest.

There are others, like Mike at MOI who actively respond to people, acknowledge emails and questions and communicates with the customer to make it right. He is a good guy from the small dealings I've had with him.
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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
MPSchmied  
#3 Posted : Sunday, November 27, 2022 2:54:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: UGMENTALCASE Go to Quoted Post
I don't use shark anymore
Calm down. We don't live in a perfect world. I don't believe, that MoI can replace Shark. I will make a Test again, but my last Test was negative. I also don't believe that a upgrade to v. 14 will be useful. It seems Tim have some problems. The beta forum is hidden, but mac ventura users get v. 14 versions for use..... this is not a good sign.

Thanks for the freedom of speech in this forum. I guess Tim Olson is sometimes angry about what we say. But he respect the freedom of speech. Thats also the reason why i stay, and maybe v. 16 is the next CAD-Software.

Edited by user Sunday, November 27, 2022 3:00:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

OS: Windows 10 | CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 2700 | RAM: 32 GB | Graphic: AMD Radeon RX Vega 56 | Shark FX 9 Build 1162 | Unit: mm
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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, November 30, 2022 1:58:22 AM(UTC)
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I didn't say it would replace it. Moi has an open v5 testing going on, if you had an old license key you can test, same with topogun 3 and probably plenty more. I've not been using moi3d for too long but everyone is open to suggestions and so on. I've dipped in and out of rhino and I remember setting it all up with logins etc, works nice. Even DWG software where you can use a floating license. Stick it on a server or something and use it one pc at a time. Great if you are on the road a lot.

I believe Shark had a similar policy where you could install on many a pc and only use one at a time, this doesn't happen anymore. I can't see that changing with the subscription they introduced.

I don't use Shark anymore, this was part of my agreement with the support team. They have fallen short on their side of said agreement though......
All part of the reason to not be asking for access to the v14 testing.

I'm perfectly calm, maybe a little frustrated with how it's all played out. To lock up a forum page and ask to access it is a bit much for me. It's not inclusive of those who have spent so much time helping them with bug reporting etc. Not to mention the affect on those people's work who have had to deal with the bugs to try and deliver jobs to their customers. It just drives people away.

I'm not convinced you'll see a change to the license set up. If they have removed the install on many pc thing, I'm not sure you'll see it come back.
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GARLIC on 11/30/2022(UTC), L. Banasky on 11/30/2022(UTC), MPSchmied on 12/2/2022(UTC), specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
2murray  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, November 30, 2022 8:00:28 PM(UTC)
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I'm interested to see how it plays out, IMSI have done the same thing with TurboCAD, which historically had the same sort of flexible license that you could install on many devices, but they didn't have enforcement signing like Rhino, they moved to one install with an ambiguous purported second "backup" install, that they ultimately wouldn't enable unless you approached them. Which is arbitrary and dishonest IMO. That might be due to the Dassault Systemes and Siemens licenses for translators and constraints. If it is, that would open up new debates about whether or not it's worth it. I don't know the current situation, but there's a post from about six years ago that specifies that the CATIA, NX and other translators don't work in MacOS, and no telling what's going to happen with Windows on ARM, although that might even be something to do with the restricted V14 malarkey. Some time ago, I suggested on TurboCAD's "wish list" suggestion thrad that secondary installations should be offered as opeions, even if it's at some extra cost. They have done that, and I took it up but it's not great value: the second install is 50% of the cost of the first, I don't think I'll take that again. Another thing that IMSI's done is restrict the "save back to" version of TC, too. For years it was only one version back, then between V21 and 2017/2018 it was extended to save back five versions, but recently only one or two again, so it wouldn't surprise me to see PunchCAD being limited like that. The "new rendering engine" in PunchCAD V14 is probably LuxCoreRender, TurboCAD has also abandoned Lightworks for Lux, the results look good but it might not be easy to use to get those. However, if IMSI's prepared to go to open-source for rendering, they could do worse than looking at FreeCAD's constraints. They're 2D, like the Siemens/D-Cubed constraints used in PunchCAD and TurboCAD, but I find them more informative and again, perhaps easier to use than IMSI's implementations.
A couple of years ago, I had some conversation with a guy named Steven Hollister. He wrote a boat modeller program called ProSurf, and its slightly-less-full-featured relative Pilot3D. In recent times, he's been working on a framework for program interaction, not in the traditional CAD interop sense, but from what I understood, an environment that multiple programs could work together within, perhaps something like the connections between 3DSMax and its plugins, or perhaps Keyshot with CAD apps, some sort of live linking. The theory is that the best tools of various apps could be used in some conjunction, instead of the proprietary jealousy that drives a lot of stuff now. Perhaps that's just starry-eyed idealism, but given the maturity of most CAD apps today, where else are they going to go? Ending up like Ashlar and seeming to be in its twilight, or trying to extract every cent from the asset until everything that's currently proprietary can be done by open-source SW anyway? That proposition looked a little absurb a decade ago, not now. Why am I still using PunchCAD and TurboCAD? GUIs that are easier to use and more convenient than FreeCAD. Rhino's still doing novel stuff with NURBS, but until I see what's in V14, I think that recent new versions of Punch and TC are cleaning up utility rather than blazing new trails - some missteps bug-wise aside.

Edited by user Wednesday, November 30, 2022 8:02:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2022 2:06:24 AM(UTC)
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Even the likes of NX carries a separate translator set up (should you want to use a CMD line translator), it could go that route to change formats to a format Shark uses. I doubt anyone would care if it opened a little window to import and translate via a secondary program.

I used pro surf a bit, but not had enough time to properly get stuck into it.

In the last year I've looked more and more at other software and there are lots more coming up which challenge the 'big boys' Others on here have mentioned ZW3D it works nice, fairly straight forward license set up, buy it or rent it. Nanocad is rental, works nice no fuss setup and so on. I don't see an issue bringing in open source stuff. Instep Studio (which you pay for and is actually quite nice to use) uses instant meshes to quad the mesh before nurbs conversion. Don't know what it uses for the nurbs conversion but Ben there is good to chat to, very informative.

Ashlar has a constraint "environment" which works good, Shark doesn't and may well be the reason it falls over a lot when you have something slightly different to a standard flat plane sketch. But Ashlar when I tested it couldn't produce a drawing without a very messy set of weird curves being projected throughout the views, no idea where they came from. It was immediately uninstalled.

Steve at Prosurf is a good guy, I've also spoken with him and he was telling me a few years back about the total rewriting of it all. But again it's free, drop him an email you get a code and away you go.

Some very different views on licensing out there, but knowing a friend who has just bought SOLIDWORKS standard for 6500 it's a tough game by the sounds of it, all the more reason to be open to suggestions. I don't know what's going on with V14, but I'd like to think the bugs are being addressed.
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GARLIC on 12/1/2022(UTC), MPSchmied on 12/2/2022(UTC), specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
Jean-Francois Jacques  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2022 10:24:57 AM(UTC)
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Tim is one of the best MCAD programmers. I've been on the forum for years and remember getting a special request for software development and getting the integration the next day. With Tim while he was at Ashlar, I contributed with Tim to the mass of the materials for the calculation of the weight of the parts and the centers of gravity of it. Rare to be able to be involved in this way as a user. The problem is that he is practically alone for the development and he must be able to repeat the bugs in order to be able to correct them. Remember he develops for Pc and Mac !!...with a new macOS per year !!
METEORE DESIGN / KEKO Stand
Jean-Francois Jacques, Industrial Designer
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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC), ctkjose on 1/6/2023(UTC)
Tim Olson  
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2022 5:39:19 PM(UTC)
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>>IMSI have done the same thing with TurboCAD, which historically had the same sort of flexible license
>>that you could install on many devices,

I am a huge believer of the Flex license (multiple installs, no simultaneous use) especially as our environment has changed to more remote work locations. I'm specifically advocating for SharkCAD and TurboCAD Platinum using our in house DRM that can track active licenses.

Tim
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Birger on 12/3/2022(UTC), specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC), ctkjose on 1/6/2023(UTC)
2murray  
#9 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2022 6:39:33 PM(UTC)
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It's overdue already! The current restrictive licensing makes dongles look like a fine idea. Darcorp's brochure still claims flex licensing with V12. Special case?

Related note: I took up TC 2022 through Mindscape, Australian agents. Their sales people were as bewildered about license conditions and permissions as everyone else (the UK agent indicated initially that he'd drop the agency..), but they went into bat for me and I took four seats because I wanted to use it on multiple PCs. But that means that it's now squarely in Fusion360 territory, which is pretty nice and pretty flexible, and viewed through the licensing lens, equivalent value. CAD art and passion aside, we're here for business.

Edited by user Thursday, December 1, 2022 7:56:37 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
ZeroLengthCurve  
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 1, 2022 10:03:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>>IMSI have done the same thing with TurboCAD, which historically had the same sort of flexible license
>>that you could install on many devices,

I am a huge believer of the Flex license (multiple installs, no simultaneous use) especially as our environment has changed to more remote work locations. I'm specifically advocating for SharkCAD and TurboCAD Platinum using our in house DRM that can track active licenses.

Tim




If such happens, I hope that the license engine is flexible enough to allow same-machine multiple instances. I sometimes generate crashy files, or files that scarf up 1.5 GB of RAM, and don't want to crash my active session instance or open files due to being forced to open a crashy file in my real session instance instead of a more forgiving 2nd instance that, if it crashes, I won't be as bothered.

I imagine such an engine would be smart enough to look for virtualization that is going out to or is accessible to an off-machine net or off-net machine, assuming an on-premises licensing model is viable.

But, if the machine engine is going to be that capable, it would be an INCREDIBLY GREAT time to allow users to copy and paste content and even whole trees or layers with properties between same and multiple instances, provided the device is not on a LAN or not generating encrypted telemetry that might be violating the licensing constraints.

An intelligent licensing engine would be a great way to bring the layer manager/Concept Explorer/ Inspector/Select Mask into the 21st century.
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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
Tim Olson  
#11 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2022 11:03:02 PM(UTC)
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>>> Flex license (multiple installs, no simultaneous use) especially as our environment has changed to more remote work locations.

FYI: Looking good to get some form of a remote/flex license included as part of SharkCAD 14 and TurboCAD Platinum 2023.


Tim

Edited by user Monday, December 12, 2022 11:03:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Tim Olson
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Birger on 12/21/2022(UTC), specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
2murray  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, December 14, 2022 3:09:55 PM(UTC)
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I'll cautiously consider cautious optimism, then.

FYI, I contacted Todd to load V10 Shark Pro with PPPro onto a new PC, under the terms of V10's flex license, and he provided me with a new node license along with a new installation. It's purportedly build 1369, the same as an existing installation, but it doesn't have PowerPack as a menu header item, and while it does have mesh to nurbs under mesh tools, most of the mesh utilities of PP are not there, mesh to analytics for example, and the Draw utilities like unroll aren't either. In fact, I've just gone skulking around preferences and under registration it tells me that PowerPack isn't installed, so there's an increased degree of teeth-grinding happening this side of the keyboard right now. It's unsatisfactory, doesn't meet the terms of the license conditions that applied at the time of purchase and just all-round leaves a sour taste. I could have/should have pursued it earlier, but man, why couldn't it be done right in the first place? It also makes me leery of assurances that better days are just over the horizon.

As an adjunct to that, it isn't too much to ask that IMSI revert V11 and V12 licenses to flex, IMO. Show of good faith and all that.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 14, 2022 11:17:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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specktech on 12/22/2022(UTC)
specktech  
#13 Posted : Thursday, December 22, 2022 8:58:37 AM(UTC)
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I really enjoy reading all these conversations. I had to mention this, Just because I am just so amazed with Moi3d. It has so much more than people realize. You have to dig a little to find out what it really can do. Search for the Moi3D wiki. It has a node editor, Gui builder, so many scripts and add on features. The most amazing lighting options, The best snapping functions. The ObJ import is another add on that has to be set up. It loads OBJ files and turns the polygons into the finest nurbs models.It has an amazing Stl converter. Moi3D usually gets most fillets. But if not ViaCad will nail those fillets. Two other programs that are free and absolutely blow my mind are Rocket 3f and Wings 3d. If you create a polygon model and send it to Moi3d's Obj converter it is just so beautiful. Made me so unhappy that ViaCad removed this functionality. No subD to nurbs. Well remove it from your advertising. Remove those tutorials that show Subd to nurbs conversions. Don't advertise items that ViaCAD removed. And Tim you have to see the problems with the symmetry function's in your polygon modeler. Wings and Rocket are completely free and just work so well. As soon as you start pulling the mesh like Silo, It will blow your mind. If anyone tries Rocket3F go check the gemstone render colors, I will be buying the Rocket3f pro version for 80 dollars as soon as possible. I really admire ViaCAD but you guys need to fix a few items. P.S. So many times I snap with construction lines in ViaCAD and they look straight and accurate. Then zoom out and rotate, And they all are crooked and angled. That is lame. When I right click and set the construction line horizontal or vertical it nails it. Or if I set points everywhere It will nail it. Never once has the snapping in Moi3D upset me. It snap's everytime right where I want it. I use ViaCAD with many other programs so I see these specific items quite often. I personally think Moi3d is the finest Cad program out there. I also have Rhino 5 trial no save. And I will absolutely have to buy that as soon as possible.
UGMENTALCASE  
#14 Posted : Thursday, December 22, 2022 9:17:12 AM(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE

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I use rocket and MOI3D. Rocket is a slightly better (fuller) however you want to word it version of nvil. Which is even cheaper than rocket. Worth if you don't use everything rocket has.
I believe the fillet in moi is being looked at closely for V5. I hope so, it will make it very slick if it's fixed up. Having said that. The likes of Viacad etc use a tolerance for surface stitching and so on. When you bring these files in moi you can see they don't always make a solid. This helps eliminate errors down the road. Stick it in moi and run a naked edge script and rebuild what isn't working right. Then make a try solid.
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specktech on 12/30/2022(UTC)
specktech  
#15 Posted : Friday, December 30, 2022 4:50:32 PM(UTC)
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Awesome tips UG Mental case... You said you are not using Shark at the moment. Curious what other programs you are using? Thanks for those little tips on Moi. I think using multiple different programs. It always helps me understand ViaCad even better. I really dig seeing models I create in the Iso lines in ViaCAD. Just got a download of Rhino 7 but just in trial mode. I really like Rhino. Stoked to be reading posts from Tim. Thanks Tim for all you do. Happy New year's Everybody. 2023 is here.
UGMENTALCASE  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 3, 2023 1:39:26 AM(UTC)
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Rhino is mega cluttered for me. Moi is just a nice simple version and seems to have a huge backing and lots of people writing scripts. There are some nice ones to generate cap screws and real threads etc.
Using Alibre Design at the moment. Catia v5 in my 'day job' that was after many a year on Siemens NX.
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