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CNC_Kid  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:24:46 PM(UTC)
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anyone running ViaCAD or Shark (MAC version) on a MAC VM inside VMware Player or Oracle VirtualBox running 64bit Win7 on Intel?

i am a Linux guy at heart, use Windoze at home, and dont care for Apple products that much, but this software seems to be better running on 64bit MAC OS, etc.

hint hint to Tim & gang - please build a Redhat/CentOS or Fedora or Ubuntu package, should be fairly easy given you already have source compiled for MAC, etc.
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ZeroLengthCurve  
#2 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:42:56 PM(UTC)
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I use VirtualBox to sandbox win7. 32-bit, in PCLOS. Runs pretty well, but occasionally, I have some inexplicable crashes. Probably VBbox losing input or emulation conversion stuff going awry. But, it might be Shark crashing thru some memory pointers/registers, too. Still, I prefer running W7 in VBox because KDE's GUI and multiple desktops are something I've liked since Mandrake 1999/2000/2001.
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ZeroLengthCurve  
#3 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:59:39 PM(UTC)
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BTW, my hardware is 64-bit, but the installed version of PCLOS and VBox are at the 32-bit level as back in July 2012, PCLOS 64-bit was still being tested, IIRC.

I recently downloaded and tested a 64-bit rel of PCLOS and of Vbox, and both seem nice, but that was done on a disck to small to send over all my current working files, and, on top of that, I'd have to re-obtain/relocate my Win7 install disk, which is locked away out of my access for some time to come.

And, I'm disinclined to buy a new machine (even if awesome and at
* well, if PCLOS on 64-bit on touch-screen hardware works very well, and if win8 won't cause resource issues in VBox 64-bit, and if nothing is laggy or performing worse than my current 8GB (4 GB to Linux, 4GB to VBox to dole out to Win7) then, if it is <$550, I might in 2015 be able to cut over.
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zumer  
#4 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:25:42 PM(UTC)
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I've been thinking about bashing something together to see whether one of the older VC versions I've had would run on ReactOS. ReactOS is an attempt to produce an open source OS that's sufficiently similar to Win XP to run XP-compatible programs, but which doesn't tread on any Microsoft IP toes. Very alpha, but it could be fun.
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CNC_Kid  
#5 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:47:23 PM(UTC)
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here's my initial plan.

Win8.1 host OS, VMware Workstation 9.0.3, MAC OS VM (all 64bit), and i have all of these already. what i dont have yet is hardware.

hardware? i am looking at all Intel (one of their m boards), 4th gen i7 either quad or hex core, or dual Xeon, with 16 or 24Gb RAM, along with some decent video card (likely Nvidia).

i plan to revitalize my VM environment (my older host went south, i have a bunch of VM's, etc).

after all that, get a MAC OS running as VM and then install my ViaCAD Pro v9 into MAC VM.

the only questionable thing now is how openGL will translate between VM and host layer, etc.

****************
edit
this just found on VMware site, so looks like good news for CAD in VM's under VMware.

Graphics Improvements

VMware has made substantial changes to Workstation 9 graphics virtualization infrastructure. The enhancements include a display-only graphics driver that can render 3D in Windows 8 without hardware acceleration, improvements to make graphics applications like AutoCAD and SolidWorks render more quickly and accurately, an improved Windows XP graphics driver and fundamental changes to improve performance and enable more advanced graphics capabilities in the future.
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CNC_Kid  
#6 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:12:14 PM(UTC)
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here's my initial plan.

Win8.1 host OS, VMware Workstation 9.0.3, MAC OS VM (all 64bit), and i have all of these already. what i dont have yet is hardware.

hardware? i am looking at all Intel (one of their m boards), 4th gen i7 either quad or hex core, or dual Xeon, with 16 or 24Gb RAM, along with some decent video card (likely Nvidia).

i plan to revitalize my VM environment (my older host went south, i have a bunch of VM's, etc).

after all that, get a MAC OS running as VM and then install my ViaCAD Pro v9 into MAC VM.

the only questionable thing now is how openGL will translate between VM and host layer, etc.
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Asrock Extreme 9ac
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posh.de  
#7 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 5:32:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CNC_Kid Go to Quoted Post
...seems to be better running on 64bit MAC OS...


...within a virtual machine instead of natively under Windows... you're kiddin'

Originally Posted by: CNC_Kid Go to Quoted Post
...should be fairly easy given you already have source compiled for MAC


shure, it's just setting a compiler switch and you're done :rolleyes:
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CNC_Kid  
#8 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 8:50:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: posh.de Go to Quoted Post
...within a virtual machine instead of natively under Windows... you're kiddin'

nope, not kidding. i wasnt comparing them, but i believe 64bit MAC in VM (on good hardware) will be better than the 32bit Windoze counterpart not in VM. i dont have MAC, so a system with a virtual layer will suffice for me to run the 64bit MAC version of ViaCAD. the hardware specs i posted should be ok for what i need, etc. if i go dual Xeon i have option up to 512GB RAM.

Edit:
initial host specs are:
asus mobo maximus VI gene
intel gen4 i7 extreme (will oc this), but maybe a gen3 hex core
windoze 8.1 pro
one of the nVidia Geforce cards, maybe gtx760 192bit
vmware workstation 9.0.3
32GB (8x4 @ 1G density) ram ddr3-1866
~500GB SSD drive (not sure which brand yet)
corsair vengeance case w/ dual fan chiller




Originally Posted by: posh.de Go to Quoted Post
shure, it's just setting a compiler switch and you're done :rolleyes:

i didnt say it was just a switch. but source carry-over should be high, MAC is basically Linux. its not like going from all Windoze to nix, etc.
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memphisjed  
#9 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 6:20:19 AM(UTC)
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get a pro graphics card, after you make the switch to firepro it is hard to go to a quadro, and after using a quadro it is dial-up agony and instability using gamer card.
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CNC_Kid  
#10 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:45:26 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: memphisjed Go to Quoted Post
get a pro graphics card, after you make the switch to firepro it is hard to go to a quadro, and after using a quadro it is dial-up agony and instability using gamer card.


any reason why your say the AMD card. reviews of that series is not as good as those for GTX series. i was looking at nVidia Geforce, not their Quadro line. keep in mind, the system is not CAD dedicated.

from Newegg user for FP W5000:
Pros: Works right out of the box. 30 bit color works great with Photoshop. Excellent with PTC Creo 2.0

Cons: My GTX 670 is faster in Solidworks 2013. I use Solidworks daily.
AutoCAD and Inventor are much slower with W5000, but no surprise there.


gtx 760 is right in that $300 range. so maybe i should compare to AMD FP V5900? W7000 and above gets into that $800 area.
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memphisjed  
#11 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:11:52 PM(UTC)
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cost between firepro and quadro is number one. Stability is the reason for pro cards, not speed. If you are coin mining or counting frames then they would not be a good choice. The firepro's can take much larger BIM and revit files than the quadro and maintain smooth operation. Each line has a stronger software and cl/gl/oem drivers, so if solidworks is quadro tuned then that might be the better choice.
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CNC_Kid  
#12 Posted : Sunday, February 16, 2014 9:55:28 AM(UTC)
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interesting results. in these tests GTX seems to beat FP's that cost 3-4x the price of the GTX. problem is, we dont know what the #'s are specifically for 3D tests.

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html


seems like Quadro is in the system more than FP card?
http://www.cadmasters.com/desktops.asp#cadlev3
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posh.de  
#13 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 6:40:59 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CNC_Kid Go to Quoted Post
...i believe 64bit MAC in VM (on good hardware) will be better than the 32bit...

64bit is for accessing more work memory and doesn't speed up anything, actually the management of the extended address room leads to a small speed decrease.

Advantage is the ability to create bigger models... which then will crunch the processing speed ;)

Originally Posted by: CNC_Kid Go to Quoted Post
...MAC is basically Linux.

OSX is basically [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU"]XNU[/URL] (for 'X is Not Unix') which incorporates the Mach microkernel and certain parts from BSD's implementation for the Posix API.

Norbert
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posh.de  
#14 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 6:53:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CNC_Kid Go to Quoted Post
interesting results. in these tests GTX seems to beat FP's that cost 3-4x the price of the GTX.


The advanced OpenGL capabilities of the Quadro FX or FirePro drivers certified for high-end modelers as e.g. Catia, NX or Creo etc. are not used by SFX/VC and therefore simply not required.

The GeForce GTX models with reliable OGL support of their driver do offer the best bang for the buck.

Norbert
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CNC_Kid  
#15 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 9:09:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: posh.de Go to Quoted Post
64bit is for accessing more work memory and doesn't speed up anything, actually the management of the extended address room leads to a small speed decrease.

Advantage is the ability to create bigger models... which then will crunch the processing speed ;)

yep, and ability for me to run multiple VM's for other things.


Originally Posted by: posh.de Go to Quoted Post
OSX is basically [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XNU"]XNU[/URL] (for 'X is Not Unix') which incorporates the Mach microkernel and certain parts from BSD's implementation for the Posix API.

Norbert

correct. my little knowledge of MAC is showing (i am not a apple fan). OS X is indeed based on BSD and is a sister cousin to Linux based Ubuntu. and from what i can see, OS X is in the category of "unix" due to its closed code and "special" kernel.

Originally Posted by: posh.de Go to Quoted Post
The advanced OpenGL capabilities of the Quadro FX or FirePro drivers certified for high-end modelers as e.g. Catia, NX or Creo etc. are not used by SFX/VC and therefore simply not required.

The GeForce GTX models with reliable OGL support of their driver do offer the best bang for the buck.

i think i read on punchlabs site that SFX/VC uses OGL, to what level of "advanced" OGL i dont know, but i like the idea of using the less expensive GTX card for my needs. thanks.
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Asrock Extreme 9ac
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NickB  
#16 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 12:35:45 PM(UTC)
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Have you thought about building a Hackintosh so that you can duel boot OS X and Windows. The best resource is http://www.tonymacx86.com/home.php that way you dont have to worry about VM's.
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ZeroLengthCurve  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 12:31:24 PM(UTC)
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If the bootloaders are not correctly set up, then the competing OSs WILL be duelling... Sorry... Could... Not... Re... Sist...
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CNC_Kid  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 1:45:14 PM(UTC)
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i would use Grub if i wanted to do multi-boot.

i want to be able to boot once and then use varying OS's all at the same time, hence VMware option.

i am now debating whether it will be ASUS Z87-Pro or the Asrock Z87 Extreme11.

the gaming mobo's have fancy OC ability and all that, but that's not my purpose, thus i basically need a rock solid mobo. i even looked at dual xeon option, but a hex gen4 i7 might just be the ticket.
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CNC_Kid  
#19 Posted : Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:00:07 PM(UTC)
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just a note. w/o passthrough ability the hypervisor will use cpu & ram to render 3d. there are some options if you go to ESX/ESXi, but thats a different beast altogether as the GPU's have to be dedicated per VM.

so, i am now debating what video card i should use given this fact. spending $$$ on a FP pr Quadro doesnt make sense if my CAD is under a hyper-v.

geez, cant Punch just get a good 64bit compile for Windows....?

anyways, hopefully my new build with i7 4770k and 32GB ram will allow me to experience the best CAD i can using software 3d rendering (likely good enough for me).

my build list was looking like this (rethinking video and ssd options):
Corsair Hydro H105
Corsair C70 Case (white)
Corsair AX860i Power Supply
Asrock Z87 Extreme9/ac
Intel Core i7-4770K
(3) Crucial CT240M500SSD1 SSD storage
EVGA Video 04G-P4-3768-KR
ASUS Optical BW-16D1HT
VCpro v11-1417
Win10Pro 32GB
Xeon E3-1270-v3 3.5GHz
Asrock Extreme 9ac
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nvidia GTX760
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