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UGMENTALCASE  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, February 07, 2018 1:27:38 AM(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE

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Hi all, when I first bought ViaCAD, I couldn't stretch myself to buy Shark (nearly $2000) so invested in ViaCAD v10 and bought the add-on (power pack pro). I keep looking out for sales and things to upgrade to Shark, mainly for the added features.
So this morning I'm checking round again, and come across this link.

http://www.masterviacad.com/store/page2/index.html

So if I was a new customer I get some special price, not bad at all, brings it under £1000 for me in the UK. But if I try and upgrade on the link below, adding in my serial numbers I get some what of a small discount off the retail price?

http://www.punchcad.com/...7-Punch-SharkCAD-Pro-v10

What I'm seeing here is there's no benefit from being an existing customer? The Punchcad link doesn't include power pack either, that would be more on top. I really want to upgrade to Shark, but if I've already pumped in the cash for ViaCAD V10 Pro, how come I now need to pump in twice as much again to get the shark upgrade?

I could just come back as a new customer and buy the cheaper version?
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NeuTechFLA  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:00:27 AM(UTC)
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Good question... I would like to know the answer to that as well.

Since we are on the subject of licenses, and UGMENTALCASE I do not want to hijack your thread so let me know if you want me to delete this. In a few words to all, why is Power Pack worth the expense? What does it provide that has real, down in the trenches, value? I have purchased Shark Pro and it was not inexpensive. But having to add functionality that, in my mind, should be in the higher level code to begin with, seems a bit of a stretch. In other words, I have no issue spending money on specific functionality such as a wire harness module, Class A body surfacing module or kinematics module. But to get the ability to remove slivers from solid/surface geometry seems like a band-aid to incomplete code.
UGMENTALCASE  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, February 07, 2018 9:48:11 AM(UTC)
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Hi NeuTech!

That's fine and I've had similar thoughts, it would be great, as I've previously mentioned to be able to 'create your own' with purchased add ons to suit whoever uses it. I mentioned this when talking about defaults the other day in another post, personalise them to suit needs.

It's like the power pack, I bought to work with converting mesh to nurbs, I've since found a stand alone program which does the same thing, and works really well, no spinning wheels unless you ask it to do something daft!

I don't use wood work, I don't use the building element, but I would like gd & t in drafting. The ability to customise would be great!

You can work around some of the power pack tools, which I found before I bought it, like line normal to surface, you can achieve the same with a point and a work plane.

I must admit I wasn't best pleased when I saw the difference in price on the links. How is one far far cheaper than the other? Who has been unfortunate enough to purchase the more expensive version?

Existing customers are the ones on here, ironing out issues. There are more and more bugs popping up each week, another one has been posted about the area fill, the video made my morning it was so funny, but then in ViaCAD it's fine? Stability!
It's great that things are being fixed, and I replied to Tim saying a similar thing, but should there be this many problems?
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BillB  
#4 Posted : Thursday, February 08, 2018 3:14:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: NeuTechFLA Go to Quoted Post
Good question... I would like to know the answer to that as well.

Since we are on the subject of licenses, and UGMENTALCASE I do not want to hijack your thread so let me know if you want me to delete this. In a few words to all, why is Power Pack worth the expense? What does it provide that has real, down in the trenches, value? I have purchased Shark Pro and it was not inexpensive. But having to add functionality that, in my mind, should be in the higher level code to begin with, seems a bit of a stretch. In other words, I have no issue spending money on specific functionality such as a wire harness module, Class A body surfacing module or kinematics module. But to get the ability to remove slivers from solid/surface geometry seems like a band-aid to incomplete code.


It seems to me that there are a number of people posting lately that want Shark and ViaCAD to be something with all the functionality of SolidWorks, a program that costs something like four times as much as Shark. For me, and I suspect for most of the target customers what is needed is a easy to learn and accessible CAD system that will produce good enough drawings for their particular needs. Approaching Shark or ViaCAD with a CAD professional's mind set seem somehow to miss the point of these programs.
Bill Bedford

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posh.de on 2/8/2018(UTC)
Jolyon  
#5 Posted : Thursday, February 08, 2018 3:56:36 AM(UTC)
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My app is called Shark Pro

On the whole it works really well - but it lets me down sometimes

Further, it's beneficial for everyone to point out where it falls over
UGMENTALCASE  
#6 Posted : Thursday, February 08, 2018 4:12:35 AM(UTC)
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To be fair it's sold as 'CAD for professionals' or 'professional CAD'. I like the program, but as others have stated chance to personalise would be great, and chance to model without glitches would be great. This sort of thinking doesn't come from using other CAD programs.....

I have found, like others, you need to be super careful, as sometimes there is NO way back!
I like the software, and honestly using Catia and NX in my day job it's hard not to compare, but once you get past that and see it as it's own software, then you can approach it differently.

I personally need more full time on it, to be able to get fully stuck in, but it's hard when you come across errors at most corners. Like I've said previously BOMs not working, fundamental thing of a drawing? I think so. It works on Tim's video on the website, now all of a sudden it doesn't? Seems strange that as the program develops and goes up in builds, others things break? How?

No one is here to cause arguments, they just want things fixing. It's like buying a car. If you bought it and drove it away, stuck the indicator on and the wipers started, you'd want to know why? I said this to Tim on my reply, it's great things are being fixed, and it only helps the Punch! Community, but I've seen posts that Jolyon has made years ago, and there's tumbleweeds floating past them.
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NeuTechFLA  
#7 Posted : Thursday, February 08, 2018 6:00:12 AM(UTC)
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I second UGMENTALCASE's statement. "CAD for professionals" implies a robust core set of utilities that are above novice or "everyday" use. It's not that we are expecting VC/Shark to be like anything else specifically. We may describe functionality that is contained in the codes we use each day at our full time jobs as a way of simply siting a known example. But I do not see anyone actually expecting Shark to "be" Creo, Catia or NX. If anything, I guess I am the one that has stated most specifically comparisons to Creo, Catia and SolidWorks as I use those now. If that is the message I have perpetuated and/or created, it was not my intention. I accept that responsibility.

What I believe I read mostly are the frustration rants regarding buggy and/or long standing issues with VC/Shark. The minimum functionality CAD bar height has risen to a very content rich level over thirty years that most users somewhat "expect" to be there. So, when one reads "New and improved Draw Views and BOM Creation" and sees a meshed vehicle form on the site, it implies a level of functionality and usability to the "World Brain" of today. But mostly, we expect what is there to be robust and not subject to buggy behavior for years. We that have used CAD for decades know full well that each code has its likes, dislikes and quirks. And we know there are always workarounds to these issues. But when the workarounds fall down, then it makes for a long and frustrating day.

I fully concede I am a Noob on Shark and try to steal away as much time as I can after work to get better at its way of doing business. I know next to nothing on the code as I have been at it for a little over a month. I need to create a thousand models before my opinion holds any weight. But in just the short time I have been using it, I see some cracks that others have seconded. I try to read as many old posts on the forum as I can as well from the long time users. I have noticed a older posts siting issues that seem to remain today. I am really pulling for Shark to be robust. Users on the front lines can do that by sighting issues and sharing them. I hope the Dev Team listens and can effect change.

Edited by user Thursday, February 08, 2018 6:08:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Jolyon  
#8 Posted : Thursday, February 08, 2018 6:43:40 AM(UTC)
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If Tim and co. aren't aware of an issue, they can't fix it ...

... so, more power to those expressing and demonstrating their bugs.

I remember what massive and fundamental improvements there were going from ConceptsUnlimited to Shark in 2008 - it was simply HUGE ! Everything got massively better ! Everybody was buzzing about it.

I would dearly love to see the next release be as committed and thorough as that was - a big open beta focusing first on reliability & usability.

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NeuTechFLA on 2/8/2018(UTC), GARLIC on 2/8/2018(UTC)
bbuxton  
#9 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 2:14:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NeuTechFLA Go to Quoted Post
Good question... I would like to know the answer to that as well.

Since we are on the subject of licenses, and UGMENTALCASE I do not want to hijack your thread so let me know if you want me to delete this. In a few words to all, why is Power Pack worth the expense? What does it provide that has real, down in the trenches, value? I have purchased Shark Pro and it was not inexpensive. But having to add functionality that, in my mind, should be in the higher level code to begin with, seems a bit of a stretch. In other words, I have no issue spending money on specific functionality such as a wire harness module, Class A body surfacing module or kinematics module. But to get the ability to remove slivers from solid/surface geometry seems like a band-aid to incomplete code.


It seems to me that there are a number of people posting lately that want Shark and ViaCAD to be something with all the functionality of SolidWorks, a program that costs something like four times as much as Shark. For me, and I suspect for most of the target customers what is needed is a easy to learn and accessible CAD system that will produce good enough drawings for their particular needs. Approaching Shark or ViaCAD with a CAD professional's mind set seem somehow to miss the point of these programs.


I haven't seen any evidence of this. What makes Solidworks expensive is part and database management and how the product scales at enterprise level.
I think some improvements that SharkCAD and SharkCAD pro need may well require more expensive licensing terms and do make it harder to develop for both Windows and Mac platforms. But this does not require enterprise pricing.

Personally, I would pay extra for SharkCAD to recognise, work with and export instanced parts. I would like to see the introduction of std parts configurators. I would like to see the Concept Explorer updated to something more up to date and relevant. It was ok in the late-1990's but we are not running on MacOs 7 or Windows 96 anymore. I would like to have the constraints tools from older versions restored.



Junior member since Concepts Unlimited V1 pre-release
UGMENTALCASE  
#10 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 2:28:44 AM(UTC)
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me too on the constraints. Freecad has constraints! I don't know the ins and outs of all the license etc, but if free software can use them, are we missing something here?

People say they weren't used? This is where tailored options would come in? I haven't touched the wood working, or render tools as I don't use them, and probably never will. But I would love constraints, makes life so much easier and quicker to do things, yes there is a work around, but these are a work around and take time!
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Jolyon  
#11 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 2:55:01 AM(UTC)
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I think a lot of energy (and licensing resources) have gone to facet modelling in recent years. (I have tried to make things in facets - but again the polish is missing, making the tools really hard to make progress with). These tools are very clever, but who is using them ?

This I believe is what happened with constraints some years ago and perhaps with other toolsets too

The danger of such excursions ... probably in the name of marketing to new users ? ... results in a lack of focus on core competencies ??

It must be difficult - but I think the developers need to decide what is core and place a majority of resources on progressing those frameworks, rather than hanging new tools off this same said framework.

Are 2D constraints (Dcubed / CDS?) more important than general core development ?

What is core ?

BillB  
#12 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 3:06:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: UGMENTALCASE Go to Quoted Post
me too on the constraints. Freecad has constraints! I don't know the ins and outs of all the license etc, but if free software can use them, are we missing something here?

People say they weren't used? This is where tailored options would come in? I haven't touched the wood working, or render tools as I don't use them, and probably never will. But I would love constraints, makes life so much easier and quicker to do things, yes there is a work around, but these are a work around and take time!


I can see that constraints are useful if you build everything from sketches, but if you start from 3D primitives, as I do, then they not so useful. For the work I do I find that having to produce a sketch for every new entity is long winded and counter intuitive.
Bill Bedford

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UGMENTALCASE  
#13 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 3:21:42 AM(UTC)
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I see yes, I suppose it's what they see fit to expand on etc. As for constraints, I've started using N sided polygon for my shapes now, at least it's all joined, and I can edit the end points, easy ish....
Even that is frustrating though. I did a pin had a number of end points, as you'd imagine. The list of points I could edit shows up, but you can't expand the box down so you can see the whole list at once? So you're up and down the list like a ping pong ball trying to find things, I mean this is the ability to edit the size of a window letting the tool down? Someone mentioned a while ago, who is thoroughly testing the tools out before release?

I've tracked down Version 7, but it's in the states, and I'm not! I would love to see what it was like to use the constraints in that version. May even use it full time, and anything fancy I need use in version 10, and export out. As it's a large ish package and quite some weight to it, I don't fancy paying the import fees, so still looking for this!

I've got version 8, which I loaded up to test out the igs issue I reported, and I quickly created a shape and a drawing, and even the drawing was cleaner, crisper to look at. This is totally stock setting in version 8 on my laptop. Started a drawing in 10, and the lines seem thicker and clunky.

It's like the more new things get added the basics go out the window.

I do get it, it's hard to satisfy everyone, but for me the basics, that probably once worked very well, are being left behind. And the more new things that get added, the old things break. Like the BOM issues, igs files not bringing in points. Even down to when you go to import an 'iges' file it says 'iges', but only lets you pick 'igs' ( no this isn't a spelling mistake by me). Daft things like this people pick up on, or at least I do, and again this is 'professional CAD'.

Like NeuTech said about the car on the website (not sure which post it was in), the more you look at it, the more you realise that hasn't been done in Shark or VC has it? If it has why isn't that file available as a key selling point, and to help it's users develop their skills. Look what you can do in Shark!!!! Or is it look what you can import?

The preferences, I chose 'Aerospace' naturally that's what I work in. What does this even do? There's me thinking it may tailor some option for me or something? Literally no idea what it does. How on earth do I find out? I don't know, like a lot of things, bit of a guessing game!
As for the original question, still not heard anything......

:-)



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UGMENTALCASE  
#14 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 3:25:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: BillB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: UGMENTALCASE Go to Quoted Post
me too on the constraints. Freecad has constraints! I don't know the ins and outs of all the license etc, but if free software can use them, are we missing something here?

People say they weren't used? This is where tailored options would come in? I haven't touched the wood working, or render tools as I don't use them, and probably never will. But I would love constraints, makes life so much easier and quicker to do things, yes there is a work around, but these are a work around and take time!


I can see that constraints are useful if you build everything from sketches, but if you start from 3D primitives, as I do, then they not so useful. For the work I do I find that having to produce a sketch for every new entity is long winded and counter intuitive.


Yes, I see what you are saying and fair enough. I naturally don't use primitive shapes. One of my 'day job' customers that is a massive no no, so I do things differently. But again, options to allow users to pick would be fantastic. If you use this software for architecture, do you need facet modelling and surfaces? I wouldn't have thought so, but you get it whether you like it or not when you buy the software.
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Jolyon  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 3:36:10 AM(UTC)
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The Aerospace option in the Preferences - should be termed 'Vehicle' IMHO

Not just planes and spaceship ... but also cars, buses, trucks, boats and ships all use Z up and X is along the vehicle

Product design typically switches the X and Y

As I remember, SW sets Y as up by default

This needs fleshing out properly !

3 buttons with 3 little sketches would fix this !

Jolyon  
#16 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 3:40:16 AM(UTC)
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>> the lines seem thicker and clunky.

You likely have View>Shade Options>Anti Aliasing on !

Jol
Jolyon  
#17 Posted : Friday, March 09, 2018 4:05:55 AM(UTC)
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>>I wouldn't have thought so, but you get it whether you like it or not when you buy the software.

One approach would be to divide into 'personas'. I have excellent Adobe replacement software - yahoo !!! (thanks Serif) that does just this - and it works well

eg: You don't model something and render it at the same time, so switching personas makes some sense ... perhaps even allowing you to buy the personas that suit your needs ?

Lots of ideas - but what's still really critical is core functionality working reliably - I'd love to see a release focus solely on this !
jdi000  
#18 Posted : Saturday, March 10, 2018 10:50:15 AM(UTC)
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I think the most efficient process is for good example files with repeated steps submitted to help squash bugs. Because there are basically unlimited amount of combinations/geometry/inputs its not efficient to fix bugs if a clear sample file and repeatable steps are present. The file is key as it saves a developer time to recreate a scenerio.

A complex software that involves multiple modules and technology can have regressive issues as new features are added, due to the complexity and impossibility of performing regression testing on every possible tool / combination as the geometry combinations/interactions are infinite.

So its very helpful to have beta's that people activity participate in to increase the depth of exposure when new tools and features are added.

Even today it is hard to find such a cost effective tool with so many features, so let continue to help make it better!

Regards

Jason
Windows 10, Win 7
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GARLIC on 3/10/2018(UTC)
Antoine  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, March 13, 2018 3:11:15 AM(UTC)
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ok, I repeat this for 10 years ...

repair, throw, rewrite?
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode
MTS mode

---
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UGMENTALCASE  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, March 13, 2018 3:17:06 AM(UTC)
UGMENTALCASE

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I see the top link on the OP has changed......
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