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Art Smith  
#1 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 11:18:32 AM(UTC)
Art Smith

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how are "Gaps", NOT apparent to the human eye, in curves "joined" with the Join Curve tool found/identified and fixed??? error messages about things not apparent to the the human eye aren't much help. it seems to me Shark should either highlight the problem(s) AND ask permission to "fix" the problem(s) or as an absolute minimum identify/highlight the problem(s)!

Art
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Tim Olson  
#2 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 1:23:40 PM(UTC)
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Hi Art

The Surface and Solid modeling engine is based on ACIS which uses a same point tolerance of 0.00001. For profile based solids we added in some correction for very small gaps. We maybe need to look at this for covers as well.

The Join Curve will take two curves and merge into one and may change the continuity at the join. The Connect Curve moves one end point to another. If you send me the file (with just the boundary curves , no constructions etc) I can investigate the gap tolerances.

Tim
Tim Olson
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IMSI Design/Encore
Art Smith  
#3 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 1:34:48 PM(UTC)
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Tim-

per your request

Art
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File Attachment(s):
gap fault isolation file.sfx (29kb) downloaded 12 time(s).

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Tim Olson  
#4 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 2:29:57 PM(UTC)
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Hello Art
Thanks for the example file. I've updated the cover tool to show gaps as point entities. This is in build 1188.

In your example file, I'm not sure if Join is the right tool for this boundary. Join will take the two curves and create a single G2 curve, which will round out sharp corners. If the two curves have a discontinuity you need to preserve as in corner, you may want to look at the Connect tool.

Tim
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Art Smith  
#5 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 3:01:52 PM(UTC)
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Tim-

thanks for the update. will the Join Curve/Connect Curve tool fix/repair the "Gap" ?? when will build 1188 be available??

Art
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Tim Olson  
#6 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 3:21:36 PM(UTC)
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The Connect Curve will move the second selected curve end point to the first selected curve end point. It is often used to fix small gaps. Not sure yet when 1188 will be ready for download. I'll post in beta forum when we do.

Attached image shows difference between Join and Connect.

Tim

Edited by user Monday, February 22, 2016 3:24:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Tim Olson
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thanks 1 user thanked Tim Olson for this useful post.
gjames on 5/17/2016(UTC)
Art Smith  
#7 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 3:32:25 PM(UTC)
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Tim-

thanks for the additional connect/join insight! have the Project Curve Plane and Project Curve Surface tools also been updated to eliminate/significantly reduce the source of the discontinuous curves? combined, they're turned a fairly straight forward "learn-by-doing" surface modeling project into something approaching a nightmare.............

Art
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Claus  
#8 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 3:34:25 PM(UTC)
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Funny, I never used the connect curve tool, never knew what it was for.

I think you can't stress enough never to join curves that meet at an angle. Coming from Adobe Illustrator it's easy to have this idea that a square should be joined at the corners. It took me some time to get this thought out of my head.

All splines have a start and an end, even a circle. Sometimes it's hard to tell where the start and ends meet if you have a closed shape and even if you see it there may be an issue with several points overlaying each other. What I often do is to cut a spline into smaller bits. I may delete the area where the spline ends meet if the shape is closed and join the two parts that are the closest - this way they will connect and while the outline stays the same the point where start and end meet is effectively moved. Sorry if my explanation is difficult to understand.

Seeing your project in this and other threads you gave yourself a challenge that requires much discipline in keeping the outlines clean and understanding what will work with the tool and what will fail. Often you need to work around some issue, make a larger geometry and cut your part out of it, sometimes I go to Rhino to ajust a surface because it's easier than doing it the hard way. And sometimes, I have to admit, I change my design to something I know can make in 3d.

Claus

PS. it may help to understand how these surfaces are created, very often they consist of a larger surface that is masked by a boundry. You can see the untrimmed surface by using the "untrim" command. Sometimes it's useful to see what goes on behind the scene...

Edited by user Monday, February 22, 2016 3:40:00 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Tim Olson  
#9 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 4:23:10 PM(UTC)
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>>Coming from Adobe Illustrator it's easy to have this idea that a square should be joined at the corners.

Illustrator supports a Bezier curve that allows the left side tangent to be different then the right side at a point. A tangent discontinuity in a NURB spline gives ACIS problems, especially blending and offseting. Most font glyphs are created using this technique.

Tim
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Tim Olson  
#10 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 4:28:11 PM(UTC)
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>> have the Project Curve Plane and Project Curve Surface tools also been updated to eliminate/significantly reduce the source of the discontinuous curves?

Are you seeing two curves who share a connection on a surface producing a gap after a projection? If so, I would appreciate an example as that would be a bug.


Tim

Tim Olson
Vice President Software Development
IMSI Design/Encore
Tim Olson  
#11 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 4:32:19 PM(UTC)
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Something else you can do to fill a planar gap is to extend the curves using Extend Dynamic or Extend By Distance and then do a Corner Trim. This would preserve more of the shape especially with the various extend options (linear, cubic, quadratic)

Corner Trim will auto extend lines and circles. Unfortunately you need to manually extend splines.


Tim

Edited by user Monday, February 22, 2016 5:25:41 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Art Smith  
#12 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 5:29:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>> have the Project Curve Plane and Project Curve Surface tools also been updated to eliminate/significantly reduce the source of the discontinuous curves?

Are you seeing two curves who share a connection on a surface producing a gap after a projection? If so, I would appreciate an example as that would be a bug.


Tim



Tim-

as posted earlier, I'm seeing a joined curve AND a single curve being projected onto a surface in pieces (one, two, and three to date). with one curve projected, I'm "expecting" one curve on the target surface (ie: NOT "N" pieces). even "N" pieces would be workable if the created "gaps" were flagged/identified/highlighted. those pieces when "joined" occasionally have "gaps" (ie: one or more I couldn't see)!! your answer and examples relating to the latest posted example lead me to conclude the "gap" was in the corner. if so, that case would be the exception to what I'm seeing most of the time. the last post was the first time I attempted to joint curves out-of-plane (ie: a corner).........

Art
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Art Smith  
#13 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 7:52:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>> have the Project Curve Plane and Project Curve Surface tools also been updated to eliminate/significantly reduce the source of the discontinuous curves?

Are you seeing two curves who share a connection on a surface producing a gap after a projection? If so, I would appreciate an example as that would be a bug.


Tim




Tim-

here's a "generic" example of what's going on with a three corner ellipse tool input; same results with an Arc and a Spline. one curve is projected as "some number" of pieces onto the surface! unless ALL of the pieces are glued back together as a secondary "belt & suspenders" operation, any subsequent operations fail because of "gaps"............

Art
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Guide Cover Surface example - three corner ellipse.JPG (44kb) downloaded 10 time(s).

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Tim Olson  
#14 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 8:20:23 PM(UTC)
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Hi Art

Can you post that file? Just to make sure I understand, are you projecting curves onto a surface, then using the projected curves to create a new cover surface?

Tim
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Art Smith  
#15 Posted : Monday, February 22, 2016 9:08:03 PM(UTC)
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Tim-

yes. projecting a three corner ellipse onto a surface curved in one direction and then attempting to cover the projected curve on the surface.

Art
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File Attachment(s):
Guide Cover Surface fault isolation example.sfx (42kb) downloaded 10 time(s).

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Art Smith  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, February 23, 2016 11:17:45 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Claus Go to Quoted Post
Funny, I never used the connect curve tool, never knew what it was for.
Seeing your project in this and other threads you gave yourself a challenge that requires much discipline in keeping the outlines clean and understanding what will work with the tool and what will fail. Often you need to work around some issue, make a larger geometry and cut your part out of it, sometimes I go to Rhino to ajust a surface because it's easier than doing it the hard way. And sometimes, I have to admit, I change my design to something I know can make in 3d.

Claus

PS. it may help to understand how these surfaces are created, very often they consist of a larger surface that is masked by a boundry. You can see the untrimmed surface by using the "untrim" command. Sometimes it's useful to see what goes on behind the scene...


Claus-

thanks for your thoughts and observations; your "untrim" idea has been filed away for a rainy day!! while not obvious, the "learn-by-doing" project is a watered down subset of my real geometry. the number of surfaces used to generate the boundary splines is half what I intend to use AND the base surface actually has curvature in two directions (only one used). a number of your ideas are already included; the base for instance is actually "below" the surface of the mating part to "hide/eliminate" all of the mating surface interface complexities (ie: trim-able). everything done so far was expected to require serious attention to detail and some learning for sure, but not the encountered nightmare. the rate of learning isn't what it might be when things don't operate as expected. new and/or infrequent users also put extreme "stress" on software documentation and the documentation's "ease of use"! the "hard part" was expected to be be joining three surfaces AND getting the slopes right along the interfaces; that hasn't even been attempted yet............... still looking for a means to copy 3D objects between layers (preferably in the same location and orientation in 3D space) and end-up with independent instances of the same object. all of the points and their resulting splines (now joined into the two boundaries shown) are also parts of the leading/trailing edge boundary needed to create the third surface. then there's the small matter of transforming the surface to a solid that can be 5-axis milled........

Art
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Claus  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 23, 2016 11:37:11 AM(UTC)
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I understand your frustration.

Regarding the copy/paste of objects between layers check the paste options in the edit menu.

Claus
Claus  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 23, 2016 11:57:11 AM(UTC)
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Art,

tried to make a test of what is bugging you, the attached show a curved surface with a 3 point ellipse projected. As you see when the ellipse touch the boundries of the surface the resulting projected curve gets broken up. However if the ellipse is smaller, like in the example below, the result is a single curve. Maybe I misunderstand what you try to achieve.

Claus
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Claus  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 23, 2016 12:08:34 PM(UTC)
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Actually this is your own file, I extended the surface and projected the ellipse.

Claus
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Art Smith  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, February 23, 2016 12:59:49 PM(UTC)
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Claus-

thanks, I'll check the paste options.

when the target surface is extended and the source curve is displaced, is the resulting "projected curve" continuous (ie: NO gaps) and will support use of Cover Guided Surface?? if continuous, will the additional constraints (ie: projected curve can not coincide with a surface boundary AND source curve and projected curve can not share any points) be added to the tool documentation or the tool(s) updated?? given current tool documentation, I don't see that something "out-of-bounds" was being attempted.................

Art
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