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ttrw  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:54:34 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Tim,

In the latter part of my honours degree, we covered real-time simulation using 3DS Max files exported into Adobe Director. By scripting Director it is possible to create a fair degree of real-time 3D manipulation. Considering that users are able to use Shark to do animation and rendering, would it be possible to add further export options such as W3D to this list, as this would place Shark in a very strong contender position as a precision modeller for real time architectural visualisation.

It would also be very worthy getting in contact the the makers of Unity3D, as apart from a very powerful game development platform, Unity is also very good for architectural visualisation (Unity is also a heck of a lot cheaper than Director!). See here;

http://unity3d.com/unity/

(check out the gallery section for the architectural visualisation demonstration- it's a download for both Mac or PC)

Tom :)
tmay  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 10:13:32 AM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
Tim,

In the latter part of my honours degree, we covered real-time simulation using 3DS Max files exported into Adobe Director. By scripting Director it is possible to create a fair degree of real-time 3D manipulation. Considering that users are able to use Shark to do animation and rendering, would it be possible to add further export options such as W3D to this list, as this would place Shark in a very strong contender position as a precision modeller for real time architectural visualisation.

It would also be very worthy getting in contact the the makers of Unity3D, as apart from a very powerful game development platform, Unity is also very good for architectural visualisation (Unity is also a heck of a lot cheaper than Director!). See here;

http://unity3d.com/unity/

(check out the gallery section for the architectural visualisation demonstration- it's a download for both Mac or PC)

Tom :)


What do you mean by real time 3D manipulation?

It's already possible to export into Adobe Acrobat 3D to create PDF's with embedded 3D manipulation, among other features, without having to script anything. I would rather pay $699 for Acrobat 3D and deliver a ubiquitous PDF than to create for yet another niche standard.

http://www.adobe.com/products/a.../?chapter=0&subchapter=6

yet another tom
ttrw  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:50:05 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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tmay wrote:
I would rather pay $699 for Acrobat 3D and deliver a ubiquitous PDF than to create for yet another niche standard.


No Tom. Acrobat 3D is not the same. AC3D is very good for what it does, but it is not the same thing so please don't confuse the two :) I know this because a detailed technical review of AC3D was part of my final year thesis. AC3D is something completely different.

What I am talking about is Adobe (Macromedia) Director. AC3D is more like a viewing system- like eDrawings, except it works with a far greater amount of file import options. As for it's 3D capability, it is really designed for engineers and industry, not consumers. Director on the other hand, is geared more towards consumers- interactive flash-based websites and the like.

Unity 3D is even better than Director, as it contains many physical engines, that make models which are being interacted with, behave more like the real thing. For example, if you throw a chair across the room, it will move just like a real chair being thrown, and an algorhythm within the software will even simulate air which is displaced, moving nearby objects etc.

It is already possible to build objects that can be used in software such as 3DS Max (via OBJ files, which I am having to import into 3DS max before exporting to Director), so why not cut out the middleman and include Director too? That way Shark will be reaching out to an even wider audience of customers. :D

Tom
tmay  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:37:21 PM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
No Tom. Acrobat 3D is not the same. AC3D is very good for what it does, but it is not the same thing so please don't confuse the two :) I know this because a detailed technical review of AC3D was part of my final year thesis. AC3D is something completely different.

What I am talking about is Adobe (Macromedia) Director. AC3D is more like a viewing system- like eDrawings, except it works with a far greater amount of file import options. As for it's 3D capability, it is really designed for engineers and industry, not consumers. Director on the other hand, is geared more towards consumers- interactive flash-based websites and the like.

Unity 3D is even better than Director, as it contains many physical engines, that make models which are being interacted with, behave more like the real thing. For example, if you throw a chair across the room, it will move just like a real chair being thrown, and an algorhythm within the software will even simulate air which is displaced, moving nearby objects etc.

It is already possible to build objects that can be used in software such as 3DS Max (via OBJ files, which I am having to import into 3DS max before exporting to Director), so why not cut out the middleman and include Director too? That way Shark will be reaching out to an even wider audience of customers. :D

Tom


I guess I'm just wondering why this is a request, as it doesn't seem to be all that great a match to either Shark or the user base. I don't even find that Acrobat Pro Enhanced is a good match for the folks here. Further, I have to ask why Adobe Director, a $999 package doesn't have wider import support embedded, in as much as Acrobat Pro Enhanced does. Is this just an oversight, or acknowledgment of the professional nature of Director?

I suppose that Adobe expects that users are sophisticated enough to figure out how to get their arcane media into Director, and for that purpose, there are a number of translators, including some shareware, available. Even then, most Director users will not have need for precise models, and will instead rely on facet models from various sources.

I don't really care about this one way or another, but Tim's got his hands full implementing features that are germaine to the user base, like parametrics, sheet metal and advanced rendering. These requests really are priortized, and I just don't see implementation of W3d as being important relative to most everthing else in Shark.

tom
ttrw  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:30:41 PM(UTC)
ttrw

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LOL!!

Spoken like a true 'old-skool' engineer! :D LOL!

The reason you don't see this as important is probably because you have never used it- or never had a reason to, which is fair enough. But considering that for a while Shark has been aimed at those who create products, and those who are largely I would guess from an industrial design background, the chance of being able to visualise a product in real time, with real time control over every function of the product, via input from say MIDI, or a USB based input product like a keyboard, this kind of function is very useful indeed.

Autodesk 3DStudio Max is internationally considered to be at the cutting edge of precision modelling (although others are catching up), and is used worldwide as the industry standard for precision 3D modelling. Autodesk as you know also own AutoCAD and Inventor, which can both be used side by side with 3DS Max. 3DS Max can also output to Adobe Director and Acrobat 3D. However ALL these three major products are Microsoft Windows only. In fact, when I last checked, so was AC3D.

"tmay" wrote:
Further, I have to ask why Adobe Director, a $999 package doesn't have wider import support embedded, in as much as Acrobat Pro Enhanced does. Is this just an oversight, or acknowledgment of the professional nature of Director?


Well yes that too is a very good question, and is a question that has been bugging many companies who choose to use different CAD packages, worldwide- including us. I think that us VC/ Shark users are very fortunate to have Tim on top of the dwg/dxf format as much as he can, because it is well documented that Autodesk don't want anyone else to use their products' competitors, yet alone their formats. In fact, recently Autodesk were talking about licensing out the dwg file format, so competitors like Tim would have to pay a premium in order to support it. (further reading here)
Unfortunately, and this is a very bitter pill to try and swallow, but if I mention the name Shark of ViaCAD to the majority of people in the industry in this country, I will bet your bottom dollar, that noone have heard of it. Actually you'll be luck if any of them have heard of Ashlar Vellum either. It's a terrible shame- but its true. So in order to get ahead of the game, companies like Punch (and Tim has rather admirably already done this to a great extent), will have to make their products as compatible with as many others as is possible. Its as simple a that, because at the bottom line Adode, even at $999, don't give a hoot.
ttrw  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 5:37:02 PM(UTC)
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In fact, here's a very good reason for Shark to support this format. A company like this

Everyone in the UK, who is engineering based, pretty much uses Autodesk products only. Solidworks is growing, but only just. Punch have a LOT of work on their hands if the are to become competitive in the UK.
ttrw  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 6:32:32 PM(UTC)
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Tom, I gather you took one look at the Unity page and thought "Huh? What the hell would the interest in this be for"? Right? Well it would be very easy not to spot the image at the far top right hand side, which is in fact a architectural interior (remember, the vast majority of Punch! Software's products are architecturally based), and not what it immediately seems- a game. These following links are downloads to an architectural visualisation simulation (which if you think about it, isn't much different to a 'game' anyway ;) )

http://unity3d.com/webplayers/ZeroFractal/Agua-Mac.zip

http://unity3d.com/webplayers/Z...Fractal/Agua-Windows.zip

The idea is if you can use CAD software to create a product (which would normally cost thousands to prototype), then you should be able to rotate the item around in virtual reality- just like AC3D. But if you go that one little bit further, by demonstrating how it actually works- whether it unfolds, or various things open, light up or whatever, and you can do this by acting in real time to controls- say like built into a glove (which already exists), then you are on to a winner- because ultimately you are saving your company a lot of money.

Read this, because this company Virtalis are right now using CAD software for real time simulations to help companies demonstrate their products using VR. This has got everything to do with Shark FX and ViaCAD!! :D :cool:
tmay  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:00:47 PM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
Tom, I gather you took one look at the Unity page and thought "Huh? What the hell would the interest in this be for"? Right? Well it would be very easy not to spot the image at the far top right hand side, which is in fact a architectural interior (remember, the vast majority of Punch! Software's products are architecturally based), and not what it immediately seems- a game. These following links are downloads to an architectural visualisation simulation (which if you think about it, isn't much different to a 'game' anyway ;) )

http://unity3d.com/webplayers/ZeroFractal/Agua-Mac.zip

http://unity3d.com/webplayers/Z...Fractal/Agua-Windows.zip

The idea is if you can use CAD software to create a product (which would normally cost thousands to prototype), then you should be able to rotate the item around in virtual reality- just like AC3D. But if you go that one little bit further, by demonstrating how it actually works- whether it unfolds, or various things open, light up or whatever, and you can do this by acting in real time to controls- say like built into a glove (which already exists), then you are on to a winner- because ultimately you are saving your company a lot of money.

Read this, because this company Virtalis are right now using CAD software for real time simulations to help companies demonstrate their products using VR. This has got everything to do with Shark FX and ViaCAD!! :D :cool:


I certainly understand what your getting at. I just don't agree that providing this functionality at this time trumps the current roadmap of SharkFX evolution. We know quite a bit of future functionality, and that Shark is near unique in the mac software market. I believe that Punch!'s and Tim's limited resources are best utilized on the current path. Being all things to all people is a potential recipe for failure.

I would note that SharkFX already contains limited animation and VR capabilities. Perhaps you would be best directed to advise Tim of improvements to meet your requirements? That way, Shark gets the benefits embedded, not just the addition of a convenient interface for professional animation packages.

tom
Art  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:14:02 PM(UTC)
Art

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I am reading this thread with a lot of interest but not much knowledge. I am always looking for new ways to explain concepts to existing and future clients and any kind of 3D (interactive or not) format would be welcome. In the end are there any tools that are great complements to where Shark is now? I may get a pc just to be able to use Acrobat 3D. Many of my clients don't really understand anything but physical models and I would think that Acrobat 3D would be a powerful tool today.

Any other options that anyone is enthused about?

Thanks in advance,

Art

Macintel Shark FX 750
tmay  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:07:12 PM(UTC)
tmay

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Art wrote:
I am reading this thread with a lot of interest but not much knowledge. I am always looking for new ways to explain concepts to existing and future clients and any kind of 3D (interactive or not) format would be welcome. In the end are there any tools that are great complements to where Shark is now? I may get a pc just to be able to use Acrobat 3D. Many of my clients don't really understand anything but physical models and I would think that Acrobat 3D would be a powerful tool today.

Any other options that anyone is enthused about?

Thanks in advance,

Art

Macintel Shark FX 750


Art

You could of course, load XP or Vista onto a MacIntel using BootCamp, Parallels or VMWare. At any rate, what you create in Acrobat Pro Enhanced (which is what 3D has become) can be read by Acrobat Reader, albeit your customers will require a fairly recent version. I have something like this in Pro/engineer that they licensed from Adobe, but I don't know if it is identical.

SharkFX does have simple animation capabilities, though not with the realtime interface that ttrw is talking about. Perhaps this would be something that you could checkout to see if it might apply to your tasks?

tom
ttrw  
#11 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2008 4:42:43 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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tmay wrote:

SharkFX does have simple animation capabilities, though not with the realtime interface that ttrw is talking about.


No Tom, you have completely missed my point, (and it seems misunderstood me). Shark FX does not have to have 'advanced animation' facilities and it doesn't need to add anything else. As a matter of fact, the basic ones that it already has are fine as they stand. What I am saying is that software like Director and Unity, understands where for example a door opens allowing a demonstrator or operator to give a real-time interactive representation of a model that is about to go to the production line. It allows engineers or designers (or both) to be absolutely sure that they understand how a product functions. But more importantly, it demonstrates to all those who cannot visualise in 3D, like those who are about to fork out for tooling costs and investment etc. VR can also be used as a powerful advertising and marketing tool.

Have you read the article about Virtalis in MCAD magazine?
tmay  
#12 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:36:49 AM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
No Tom, you have completely missed my point, (and it seems misunderstood me). Shark FX does not have to have 'advanced animation' facilities and it doesn't need to add anything else. As a matter of fact, the basic ones that it already has are fine as they stand. What I am saying is that software like Director and Unity, understands where for example a door opens allowing a demonstrator or operator to give a real-time interactive representation of a model that is about to go to the production line. It allows engineers or designers (or both) to be absolutely sure that they understand how a product functions. But more importantly, it demonstrates to all those who cannot visualise in 3D, like those who are about to fork out for tooling costs and investment etc. VR can also be used as a powerful advertising and marketing tool.

Have you read the article about Virtalis in MCAD magazine?


True enough on SharkFX animation, but I'm having difficulty seeing exactly what Shark brings to the table with regards to modeling for said packages. You are advocating that by pushing SharkFX towards this functionality, that this will increase marketshare, but there are already established applications, as an example 3DS Max that you describe, that are a better fit for this, and there are many, many facet modelers that would work as well at a much lesser price (example: Modo) than Shark.

I admire your grit in attempting to convince me that this is something that SharkFX should aspire to, but again, I'm saying that it's taking the focus off of the evolution that is planned and will establish SharkFX well in its existing niche; an easy to use yet powerful modeler.

I have Maxwell Render, and in Solidworks, I have a plugin. I haven't asked for a plugin from Tim for Maxwell Render, because I know that there are very few users of both Maxwell and Shark, and it dilutes his resources to chase niches that really aren't germaine to what he sees his market as. (I don't want to assume any particular market, but I can assume that Tim has his hands full just evolving ViaCAD and Shark).

I have full kinematics, dynamics, and animation (modest) in both Pro/e and Solidworks, so you could argue that there isn't much purpose in having
Shark around, but I use Shark as it is fast and easy for creating models that I can readily import for machining, and any of these can be easily imported into either of the higher end packages.

I haven't read your noted article on Virtalis, but I glanced at it. I do understand where your coming from, but I just don't see that creating an export function to Director is going to have any impact at all in Shark's marketshare. That's all that your asking for isn't it?

Maybe things are different in England, but here, I don't know any engineers or designers that uses AutoCAD (excepting the RF guy that I build stuff for), some use Inventor or Solidedge, most use Solidworks or Pro/e.

I do see that lots of folks that machine and fabricate things would adopt ViaCAD for its price, and some of those would upgrade to the functionality of Shark. Obviously, Shark appeals to Industrial Designers, but I would suspect that most are individual users, who like the capabilites and ease of use, but especially the pricing. Adding functionality for MCAD use (3D parametrics, sheetmetal, advanced assembly), which is what I advocate, is beneficial for the whole product line.
ttrw  
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:14:04 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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"tmay" wrote:
I admire your grit in attempting to convince me



Tom, can I remind you that this part of the forum is for suggestions, and that is simply what this is, a suggestion.

I have made my argument and I'm going to leave it at that. I have no doubts that Tim amongst others will be reading this and considering what benefits a simple extension add-on will bring.

You are obviously an established engineer type who has already invested in much of the already available, major software titles. Well friend, good for you. You can obviously afford it! I, otoh, own a copy of ViaCAD 2D/3D and a copy of QCad, which add up to a total of about $128. Both of which, work on my Mac. But my kids, my mortgage and my wife come first and if I am to invest in a seat of Shark, then I will make as many suggestions as possible that I believe make the software versatile (for myself as well as others) as is possible.

You have obviously already made up your mind about this, as why else would you have become so sensitive about the issue? However, I am rather disappointed that you still haven't yet read what I suggested reading, and have merely 'glanced' at it. How can I possibly make a case if you are not even going to consider the evidence?

Like you pointed out in your closing last paragraph, Shark is intended for individuals, who like not only the price, but the capabilities and the product's ease of use. I, for what it is worth, am one of those very individuals. :)

best regards,

Tom Fenn
tmay  
#14 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:17:54 AM(UTC)
tmay

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ttrw wrote:
Tom, can I remind you that this part of the forum is for suggestions, and that is simply what this is, a suggestion.

I have made my argument and I'm going to leave it at that. I have no doubts that Tim amongst others will be reading this and considering what benefits a simple extension add-on will bring.

You are obviously an established engineer type who has already invested in much of the already available, major software titles. Well friend, good for you. You can obviously afford it! I, otoh, own a copy of ViaCAD 2D/3D and a copy of QCad, which add up to a total of about $128. Both of which, work on my Mac. But my kids, my mortgage and my wife come first and if I am to invest in a seat of Shark, then I will make as many suggestions as possible that I believe make the software versatile (for myself as well as others) as is possible.

You have obviously already made up your mind about this, as why else would you have become so sensitive about the issue? However, I am rather disappointed that you still haven't yet read what I suggested reading, and have merely 'glanced' at it. How can I possibly make a case if you are not even going to consider the evidence?

Like you pointed out in your closing last paragraph, Shark is intended for individuals, who like not only the price, but the capabilities and the product's ease of use. I, for what it is worth, am one of those very individuals. :)

best regards,

Tom Fenn


Sorry if you are offended. It that wasn't my intent, and I apologize for my poor handling of these issues.

As for not reading the articles, I've been programming and machining prototype parts while I've been posting these, so I haven't been able to sit down and give it the attention that it deserves.

best regards,

tom
ttrw  
#15 Posted : Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:01:40 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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tmay wrote:
Sorry


You were beginning to try my patience yes, but is takes a stronger person to rise up, come back and apologise. :)

FWIW, I too am scripting in Director right at this moment as well as having to do stupid tweaks in 3DS Max. I am annoyed with this 3DS Max, because VC is a lot easier to use. Since the tools I need are already in Shark (but not VC), I made this suggestion here, in the suggestion forum, to try to implement this export feature in Shark FX so I (and others) don't have to put up with this very frustration of having to use various software packages in any other work I (or they) may be asked to do in future.

best,

Tom
bmeissner  
#16 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2008 5:43:22 AM(UTC)
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ttrw wrote:
FWIW, I too am scripting in Director right at this moment as well as having to do stupid tweaks in 3DS Max. I am annoyed with this 3DS Max...



Just FYI, on the Mac there was FormZ up to version 5.5, which was able to export to W3D. This export format disappeared with version 6 (as Viewpoint VET did), due to a "lack of support of these formats" by the companies in question (Adobe/Viewpoint). Autodessys seems to investigate this problem again, see [URL="http://www.formz.com/forum2/messages/16/20983.html"]FormZ Forum discussion[/URL]. Anyway, if you want to get rid of Max on the PC, try to get an older FormZ version :-)

Bernd
ttrw  
#17 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2008 7:47:00 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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bmeissner wrote:
Just FYI, on the Mac there was FormZ up to version 5.5, which was able to export to W3D. This export format disappeared with version 6 (as Viewpoint VET did), due to a "lack of support of these formats" by the companies in question (Adobe/Viewpoint). Autodessys seems to investigate this problem again, see [URL="http://www.formz.com/forum2/messages/16/20983.html"]FormZ Forum discussion[/URL]. Anyway, if you want to get rid of Max on the PC, try to get an older FormZ version :-)


Thanks for the advice Bernd, but I prefer to stay up-to-date with software, (and fwiw, I'm quite strictly against 'pirated' software, because supporting pirated stuff in the end only supports the bigger players anyway, because after all if you are going to go for pirate software, why not just go for the biggest names you can such as Adobe et al, and leave out the smaller, younger more cutting edge developers?).

The main reason that W3D was dropped is because Macromedia (who originally wrote Director for Mac btw), stopped Mac development for a number of years. However Adobe have bought out Macromedia, and Director 11 has just recently been announced.

But look at Unity. Unity is $200 for the basic version (which is a super bargain in its own right) and $2000 for the 'pro' version. Unity does what Director does, and a whole lot more. Unity is also being developed for the iPhone and plug ins already exist for Safari, Firefox, Internet Explorer etc. FWIW, Unity already accepts OBJ files, so we are half way there already :)
bmeissner  
#18 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2008 8:26:33 AM(UTC)
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ttrw wrote:
Thanks for the advice Bernd, but I prefer to stay up-to-date with software, (and fwiw, I'm quite strictly against 'pirated' software, because supporting pirated stuff ...



Huh? What did I say that makes you think I've been talking about pirated software? I'm running two licensed seats of FormZ since 1996, and additionally full licenses of ViaCad, ConceptsUnlimited, IronCad, PolyTrans etc.p.p.blahblah... I've paid every single piece of software I use including even all those little shareware applications. I'd *never* recommend getting software in an illegal way.

What I've been talking about: If I *would* sell my FormZ license, you'd get the dongle and the whole software package back to version 2.7... which would enable you to run 5.5, without preventing you to use the most current version as well. The same could be the case if another long-time Z-User would sell his software. That's all.

Bernd
ttrw  
#19 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2008 8:44:32 AM(UTC)
ttrw

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Thanks for the offer, but I'd rather that the function was in Shark FX. :)
bmeissner  
#20 Posted : Friday, June 27, 2008 9:04:53 AM(UTC)
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ttrw wrote:
Thanks for the offer, but I'd rather that the function was in Shark FX. :)


This hasn't been an offer either. I just told you about a *Mac* alternative to the "beloved" Max. But I understand, of course, your wish to have it all in one application. Because this rarely comes true I have so many of them, each for an other purpose...

Bernd
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