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jol  
#1 Posted : Thursday, January 29, 2009 1:17:49 PM(UTC)
jol

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- make a circle

- cover surface from that circle

you now have associativity !

blow away that circle and you get a warning that your associativity will be broken if you continue .. seems fair !

However, split the circle (segment at location) .. and you turn your circle into 2 arcs. In doing so you break the associativity

Yet .. NO dialog comes up to let you know my feature tree / history is at risk

Why ?

Am I beginning to understand why I often don't find the 'features' I expect to find in my model ?

(There must be many more examples of this .. as far as I can see, it represents a flaw)
jol  
#2 Posted : Friday, January 30, 2009 7:39:43 AM(UTC)
jol

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We need to do everything we can to maintain the integrity of the history of a part .. including issuing dialog warnings for any actions that will mean the history tree will be wiped ..

.. otherwise what is the point in maintaining a part history at all ?

[the other possibility is that the circle split - in this case - itself becomes part of the history tree]
unique  
#3 Posted : Friday, January 30, 2009 9:17:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jol Go to Quoted Post
- make a circle

- cover surface from that circle

you now have associativity !

blow away that circle and you get a warning that your associativity will be broken if you continue .. seems fair !

However, split the circle (segment at location) .. and you turn your circle into 2 arcs. In doing so you break the associativity

Yet .. NO dialog comes up to let you know my feature tree / history is at risk

Why ?

Am I beginning to understand why I often don't find the 'features' I expect to find in my model ?

(There must be many more examples of this .. as far as I can see, it represents a flaw)


Yes I agree...VC should report the associativity is at risk!

As you pointed out by splitting a curve currently removes all links from the surface :confused:. IMO There should be a warning AND the option to rebuild the geometry where possible ?
jlm  
#4 Posted : Saturday, January 31, 2009 12:44:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jol Go to Quoted Post

(There must be many more examples of this .. as far as I can see, it represents a flaw)


Yes I've always been surprised to get no warning in that case.
- make a square,
- extrude a solid (or lathe...)
- add a fillet between 2 lines of the square,
---> same issue

Resolve links gets "on", but cannot action.

JL
jol  
#5 Posted : Saturday, January 31, 2009 11:08:23 AM(UTC)
jol

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JL - I have come across that case .. resolve links can't be resolved .. I think this is wrong !

We are building foundations here for our models with holes like a swiss cheese

All of a sudden I realise why my history suddenly disappears

The very least we can do here Tim is to insert some mouse traps !

"If you do that - fine, but then you lose your history "
jol  
#6 Posted : Thursday, February 5, 2009 3:40:58 PM(UTC)
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Isn't this a debate worth having ?

I was under the impression that we were generating feature driven models with a history we had to opt out of to break

Would that not be a better paradigm than what we have .. (generates feature driven model until user stumbles upon a tool that breaks associations without necessarily warning user)
jol  
#7 Posted : Monday, March 9, 2009 8:13:14 AM(UTC)
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If our history system was the plumbing - you'd need to live in waders

What action are we going to take about the numerous situations where you unwittingly delete your object's history without any warning ?

My object's history should be 100% intact unless ..

1.) I AGREE to perform an action which will compromise it ..

2.) I CHOOSE to dump it myself
Tem  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:27:17 AM(UTC)
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I agree, it is frustrating.

Sometimes, it feels like a I am blindfolded and at any moment I might run off a cliff.
Cut at least one hole in the blindfold so we can make a decision before we decide to take the plunge.

Thanks!
Tim Olson  
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:30:28 PM(UTC)
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- make a square,
- extrude a solid (or lathe...)
- add a fillet between 2 lines of the square,
- Resolve links gets "on", but cannot action.

Repeated here as well. Working on a fix now....

Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
jol  
#10 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 3:05:04 AM(UTC)
jol

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Is that all you have to say ?

History needs to be water - tight

It's not !

Sweep a simple surface from a line .. now break the line .. history dumped, NO warning -- why?

I expect an option here to continue and lose history .. or to reconsider

I'm sure I'm not wrong on this - I have spend years wondering where my part history has unexpectedly vaporised to - now I know and we need to discuss a fix !
ttrw  
#11 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 6:42:48 AM(UTC)
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Tim I must say I have to agree with Jol (and everyone else). I've kinda fallen out of hope with Punch software recently and have been gravitating back towards the darkside, (learning Rhino) because of silly glitches like these. I too have lost my history tree and have got so miffed, that I've booted into windows in order to reach deadlines.

It's a real shame because potentially Shark and ViaCAD do really have the potential of being viable alternatives to the big heavies. I can understand that this is some serious coding going on here, (I'm also presuming that most of it is C++ based and doesn't (like the darkside ones- not necessarily including Rhino) use the micro$oft .NET framework, making their life slightly easier, but locked into windows only?), so I'm really hoping that these issues have been addressed and fixed for SFXv6? :)
Tim Olson  
#12 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 11:40:35 AM(UTC)
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>>make a square,
>>extrude a solid (or lathe...)
>>add a fillet between 2 lines of the square,


I've made some changes that now fixes this associativity loss for:
--Fillet Two Curves
--Fillet Three Curves
--Chamfer Two Curves
--Chamfer Angle

I changed these tools to automatically add/remove curves to the profile object. The profile object is than associated with your extrudes, revolves, etc.


http://www.csi-concepts.com/Demo/videos/filletChamfer.mov

Please let me know of any more tools that remove associativity without warning.

Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
Tim Olson  
#13 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 11:43:55 AM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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>>However, split the circle (segment at location) .. and you turn your circle >>into 2 arcs. In doing so you break the associativity

Jol,

Going over the tools in the trim palette next....

Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
jol  
#14 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 1:21:14 PM(UTC)
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This is great news Tim

I'll try and figure out where else we're losing history without warnings

I'm sure there was an undo related one too ! - I'll try to find the file

Meanwhile - if anybody else has examples of situations where history is lost with no warning .. pls post ! (I think JL had an example if I remember right)
Tim Olson  
#15 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 2:21:31 PM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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One more change related to the above. I beefed up the cover tool in the case of planar curves to automatically recognize cutouts. You no longer need to go to the 2D boolean tools. It also was "smartened" up to automatically recognize curve add/remove using the fillet/chamfer tools.


http://www.csi-concepts.com/Dem...ideos/improvedCovers.mov

Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
Tim Olson  
#16 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 3:35:58 PM(UTC)
Tim Olson

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>>However, split the circle (segment at location) .. and you turn your circle >>into 2 arcs. In doing so you break the associativity


Ok this is now fixed. All the tools in the trim palette I've checked/fixed including region trim.


Tim
Tim Olson
IMSI Design/Encore
jol  
#17 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 4:34:07 PM(UTC)
jol

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Well done Tim !

.. I look forward to stress testing this stuff .. hehe

: )
jdi000  
#18 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 4:38:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>>make a square,
>>extrude a solid (or lathe...)
>>add a fillet between 2 lines of the square,


I've made some changes that now fixes this associativity loss for:
--Fillet Two Curves
--Fillet Three Curves
--Chamfer Two Curves
--Chamfer Angle

I changed these tools to automatically add/remove curves to the profile object. The profile object is than associated with your extrudes, revolves, etc.


http://www.csi-concepts.com/Demo/videos/filletChamfer.mov

Please let me know of any more tools that remove associativity without warning.

Tim



Tim


Could you get this associativity in the tube tool as well. If you need to change a radius in tube bend it loses the associativity with the adjoining curves? Or a way to join a bunch of tube centerline into say a joined polyline that can be modified but keeps associativity?



Thanks

Jason
Windows 11, 10
jdi000  
#19 Posted : Friday, March 13, 2009 4:48:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
>>make a square,
>>extrude a solid (or lathe...)
>>add a fillet between 2 lines of the square,


I've made some changes that now fixes this associativity loss for:
--Fillet Two Curves
--Fillet Three Curves
--Chamfer Two Curves
--Chamfer Angle

I changed these tools to automatically add/remove curves to the profile object. The profile object is than associated with your extrudes, revolves, etc.


http://www.csi-concepts.com/Demo/videos/filletChamfer.mov

Please let me know of any more tools that remove associativity without warning.

Tim



Hi, Tim


Sorry the other question about this is if you apply the bend tool to an extrude profile and want to change say the corner radius of the profile does this new associativity update the bent part?


Thanks

Jason
Windows 11, 10
jlm  
#20 Posted : Saturday, March 14, 2009 2:57:23 AM(UTC)
jlm

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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post

I changed these tools to automatically add/remove curves to the profile object. The profile object is than associated with your extrudes, revolves, etc.
http://www.csi-concepts.com/Demo/videos/filletChamfer.mov
Tim


That's a GREAT improvement Tim !
JL
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