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Art Smith  
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 29, 2018 1:11:08 AM(UTC)
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does SharkCAD Pro with both PowerPack and AeroPack have the capability to create non-circular tubular surfaces along non-planar curves? see attached illustration

does SharkCAD Pro with both PowerPack and AeroPack have the capability to impose the slope from one surface onto a second/third/forth/.... surface jointed to the first? ie: both position and slope continuity at the interface see attached illustration

Art
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imposing slope at junction question.jpg (38kb) downloaded 2 time(s).

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UGMENTALCASE  
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 29, 2018 1:22:12 AM(UTC)
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I don't have Shark Pro, but how far does it let you go with the rib feature? Just thinking the rib in Shark Pro might be like the rib in Catia?
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GARLIC  
#3 Posted : Sunday, April 29, 2018 3:15:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Art Smith Go to Quoted Post
does SharkCAD Pro with both PowerPack and AeroPack have the capability to create non-circular tubular surfaces along non-planar curves? see attached illustration

does SharkCAD Pro with both PowerPack and AeroPack have the capability to impose the slope from one surface onto a second/third/forth/.... surface jointed to the first? ie: both position and slope continuity at the interface see attached illustration

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net


Would you like to upload your basic geometry as sfx and dxf-files ?

thanks + regards
G.

Art Smith  
#4 Posted : Sunday, April 29, 2018 11:33:22 AM(UTC)
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here's a file with the basic geometry. thanks!!

Art
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non-circular cross section tubular surface along non-planar curve question.sfx (18kb) downloaded 8 time(s).

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GARLIC on 4/29/2018(UTC)
Tim Olson  
#5 Posted : Sunday, April 29, 2018 11:56:41 PM(UTC)
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Hi Art,

No, but I'm looking at Spatial R2018 which has a new surface tool called Skin Along Center Line Path which might be what you are looking for. See Attached. I'm still learning the tool though...

I like your example:) When I was with Lockheed's Advanced Design group we did a lot of work for designing ducts. We needed to go from a rectangle face to circular compressor face while snaking around for radar signature issues and maintain constant cross sectional area. A lot of variables making this a non trivial design task!

Just curious, do you need constant cross sectional area with respect to the centerline for this task?


Tim

Edited by user Monday, April 30, 2018 12:00:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Art Smith  
#6 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 1:30:16 AM(UTC)
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Tim-

"A lot of variables making this a non trivial design task!"

roger that!! duct length is my RCS.

best-on-best I'll be able to get away with constant area duct..... it's likely I'll be forced to an exponential horn (ie: the rate of change of area is a constant) to minimize compression flow losses. to date I've been sectioning the constant area solution and adjusting after the fact; messy for sure but it's quicker than attempting to route an exponential horn!! definitely interested in Spatial's new tool!!

Art
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ps: my final examine in descriptive geometry was a rectangle to round duct transition with the grade determined by the planometer's measurement of the required sheet metal; back in the dark ages when a good sharp 6H pencil was "jacks or better to play"!! the transition duct problem just keeps on giving like the Energizer Bunny.
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murray  
#7 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 5:47:02 AM(UTC)
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Tim's definitive "No" is to a direct tool, but you can path-duplicate your profiles along your non-planar path and loft between them, scaling to maintain area if you need. Lofted solid respects edge tangency between the sections. I've used 8 duplicates for both profiles arbitrarily, you can distribute them differently along the path with variations of duplicate numbers. Convert the part to surfaces 'cos that's what you want, natch.

Edited by user Monday, April 30, 2018 5:56:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Art Smith on 4/30/2018(UTC)
Art Smith  
#8 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 6:43:39 AM(UTC)
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Murray-

thanks!! interesting variation with potential; might be a means to avoid having to impose the twist manually. my posted "process development" surface uses a taller & thinner (ie: constant area) center section to deal with expected packaging problems from needing to find equal length staggered/interleaved solution

Art
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Art Smith  
#9 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 2:02:42 PM(UTC)
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the process development duct solution has been cleaned-up to the extent I know how and two of the three joints still need help.....! see attached collage. all three joints were improved using the "Match Surface" tool with "tangency" specified. both end of the twisted section still aren't what they need to be!! any thoughts or ideas on how best to go about improving both joints?? the twisted section was done manually with a single cross section. each of the cross sections was duplicated (ie: from a single source), translated, and rotated twice using full available angular tolerance.

five sections (ie: two ends and four intermediate stations) were used for the initial "Loft Surface" attempt of the twisted section. do I need more intermediate stations? do I need to add "straight" sections on both ends and then cut them off after lofting? do I need to match all of the joints with "curvature" specified? is there another tool I should be using? thanks!

Art
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rockyroad_us  
#10 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 7:55:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Art Smith Go to Quoted Post
does SharkCAD Pro with both PowerPack and AeroPack have the capability to create non-circular tubular surfaces along non-planar curves? see attached illustration

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net


You just split the circle and the rectangle in half and use the guide skin solid using the spline as the guide. You would get a bottom half and do again for the top half and then join them.

The tool Tim has shown is nice but we have to work with what we have.

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Art Smith on 4/30/2018(UTC)
Art Smith  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 8:45:31 PM(UTC)
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rockyroad_us-

very innovative approach, thanks!! I'm also a big believer is using what we have as long as it can be made to work.....

"Guide Skin Surface" tool ignores my guide selection and provides the same solution as "Skin Surface" tool; using SharkCAD Pro 1369 see attached collage.

Art
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Tim Olson  
#12 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 11:18:38 PM(UTC)
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>> ignores my guide selection and

The guide must fall on a location on the profile.

Tim

Edited by user Monday, April 30, 2018 11:22:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Art Smith on 4/30/2018(UTC), GARLIC on 5/1/2018(UTC)
Art Smith  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, May 01, 2018 1:04:24 AM(UTC)
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Tim-

progress, the "Guide Skin Surface" tool has been tricked into providing half the desired surface! two halfs along the line suggested by rockyroad_us. I added a "web" from half the desired perimeter to the center line (ie: the spline) and the surface appears as expected. see attached collage. done twice yields the candidate duct; candidate because it hasn't be sectioned yet to verify flow area AND rate of change of flow area along the duct.

in keeping with the old adage "no good deed goes unpunished", I'm left with unwanted web surface in the center. any thoughts on how best to remove the unwanted web surface in the center leaving a clean interior and no gaps? given the surface has no thickness, I'm not sure how to go about "parting" the web with another surface..... sweeping a line along the spline doesn't produce the needed surface!

Art
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rockyroad_us  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, May 01, 2018 7:40:18 AM(UTC)
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Looks good. I however did it with solids not surfaces. I suppose you can do it with guide skin surface too.
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Tim Olson  
#15 Posted : Monday, May 07, 2018 8:13:21 AM(UTC)
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?? to get away with constant area duct.....

Art, do you have AeroPack?

Tim
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Art Smith  
#16 Posted : Monday, May 07, 2018 8:43:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tim Olson Go to Quoted Post
?? to get away with constant area duct.....

Art, do you have AeroPack?

Tim



Tim-

Yes! both AeroPack and PowerPack.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net
Tim Olson  
#17 Posted : Monday, May 07, 2018 9:15:44 AM(UTC)
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>>Yes! both AeroPack and PowerPack.

Great, I'm getting ready to upload the next WIP build for SharkCAD Pro.

AeroPack has a tool for calculating area curves. I noticed it had some commented out code for calculating area/cg curves relative to a spine. With very little work I was able to get that working in 1370. It may help with your duct design. I'll post more instructions how to use later today.

Link to video. I'm curious if this helps in your design process.

http://www.csi-concepts.com/Demo/videos/areaCurve.mp4


Tim

Edited by user Monday, May 07, 2018 2:31:34 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Art Smith on 5/7/2018(UTC)
Art Smith  
#18 Posted : Monday, May 07, 2018 3:10:19 PM(UTC)
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Tim-

thanks!! outstanding stuff; appears to have the potential to save a HUGE amount of time creating the area vs distance curve. I'll wait for your instructions for a definitive answer but first blush suggests it's a winner. all of the work sectioning the duct normal to the center line, verifying each of the areas, and pasting the numbers into a spreadsheet is avoided................. my options are down to a linear rate of change of area and an exponential horn which would require creating lofting "ribs" for the entire length.

Art
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Art Smith  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, May 08, 2018 1:04:24 PM(UTC)
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Tim-

down loaded 1370 and tried the "Area/CG Curve" tool with the "along spline" option set this morning; works slick!! thanks!!! it should be a big help/time saver early in the design exploration phase getting options into the ballpark/close. once things are close, I don't currently see a way around using a spreadsheet to impose very specific areas at the selected stations along the curve/spline. while a great deal of work, in the short term it has the advantage of enabling use of the "Loft Surface" tool to yield a single surface; thus avoiding all/most of the current excitement associated with "Matching" and "Joining" partial surfaces to obtain the desired duct/port/runner.

an enhancement that would have great utility for the complete design cycle would be the addition of the functionality required to export to a text file/spreadsheet (.csv) the distance along the curve/spline and the flow area normal to the curve/spline................. flow area normal to the center line surely makes the top of every duct/port/runner designer's useful/required metrics list!! like the tool in it's current configuration, the functionality could be used "inverted" for taper/recovery problems for solids. years ago it would have been handy working the buoyancy "challenges" associated with getting an APC to float!

Art
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